My Hyfire II Installed...and a Concern

 
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AJtheNewbie
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Post by AJtheNewbie » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 10:54 am

Here are some pics of my Hyfire II finally installed an fired up. We have it tied into the return are plenum witha heat jacket and use our existing furnace fan to distribute the heat upstairs. We definitely enjoy the way the Hyfire heats the house and seems to maintain the house temp much better than the hot air oil furncae does. We have been using it for about 1 week...and I have a concern that I wanted to get some opinions on.

The first day we fired it up after it had been installed by (Mike from M&M Coal in Fulton, NY) everything seemed fine until that night when the CO detector started going off on the first floor main living area (we have a ranch with a basement - whre the Hyfire is installed). I began to get worried and actually had the fire dept. come out to take level readings. On the mian floor it was reading in the 30s PPM and it was around 50PPM down at the Hyfire. Since this was my first coal experience - I shut it down immediately and spoke to Mike the next day. He indicated that it was most likely oils (from the manufacturer to help prevent corrosiaon, etc.) that coated the new piping/ductwork that he installed - something that would burn off. So I fired it back up and over the next few days - the detector went off only a few times - but I "wrote it off" as the "burning off process". Now we only had an older CO detector that had no digital level read out - so it would only alarm - and sometimes it acted funny chirping to indicate it may need to be replaced.

So I purchase 2 new CO detectors woith digital readout and installed them last night. Now they are set up to alarm or show reading only after they detect something above 35 PPM. But there is a feature that keeps track in memory of the highest detected level from 11 PPM to 35 PPM even if it doesn't alarm. So they did not alarm during the night but this morning I checked the memory and found the one installed downstairs (at least 15 ft. from the Hyfire) showed a max. reading of 32 PPM and the one upstairs in a hallway near the bedrooms showed a max. reading of 31PPM - these must have occurred overnight from the time I installed them last night....

So - I am looking for some help / advice / guidance here - I know of nothing else in my home that could be omitting CO (we have no natural gas appliances - only electric and have not run the oil fired furnace at all since the coal has been going)...what has been your experience with this type of CO situation - if any? Is it at all normal? Is there really a "burning off" of oils on the new flue / ductwork pipes?...and should it still be happening after it has been burning for a week? Is there a time in the cycle of the coal burning when it might be worse (ex when it is full fire vs. when it is in "idle" with just a minimum feed to keep it going)? How much of a concern are these CO levels? Any ideas about how / why the stove could be emitting these levels of CO? Should I be calling the installer (Mike M&M Coal) to have him check it out - and if so what exactly would he "check out"

Any help / advice you could offer would be a huge help and I would be very grateful...I am a bit concerned about all this because of the uncertainty of detecting and dealing with the whole CO issue...

Thank you.

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titleist1
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Post by titleist1 » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 11:40 am

I would be concerned about the CO also. You should not be getting any CO readings from your stove. Some things to start checking....Are all the flue pipe joints sealed? Do you have a manometer to measure your draft? I am wondering if it is because of what looks like a shared flue pipe with the oil burner? Can you cap off the one side of the T and see if that makes a difference?

 
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Post by ceccil » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 11:41 am

Aj, first thing I would do if you are getting CO is shut it down for your safety and that of you family. CO is nothing to mess with. Yes you will get some smoke or odor when burning off a new stove, but it should be gone in a day or two. If your CO detectors are still alarming after a week, you probably have a draft issue. Do you have a manometer to check your draft? Did your installer use one to check the draft after install? If not, I suggest you leave stove off until you get one. IMO if you are burning coal, you should have a manometer so you can check your draft once in a while. The forum has a loaner program for the manometers or you can pick one up on ebay for around $30.00 It's a small price to pay for peace of mind knowing your draft is correct. At the least right now, I would call your installer back and have him check everything out and check the draft for you. If you want to purchace a manometer, most here are using the Dwyer Mark II model 25. On ebay just type in "Dwyer manometer", ther are a few of them on there now. I believe once you get all the bugs worked out, you will be very happy with your stove, not to mention warmer for less. Good luck.

Here is the link for the loaner program. Manometer Loaner Program

Jeff

 
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Post by WNY » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 11:42 am

first CO IS DEADLY!!! You should not have ANY readings on ANY of your CO detectors. There is something with your draft definitively wrong.

DO you have the Baro Damper and the Draft adjusted with a Draft Gauge Correctly? That needs to be done.

Also, look like you have the exhaust into a TEE from your furnace, that is a BIG NO NO, you cannot connect 2 devices to a chimney this way per code, especially 2 different fuels. I think your exhaust is going back down your other pipe to your other furnace and possibly leaking out that way.!!

TO eliminate this, disconnect the furnace pipe from the furance (turn the oil/gas off so it won't come on) and just hook the coal stove and and check it that way to see if you do not have any readings. That would be the first thing to check for leakage.

YOu should either have a separate port into your chimney or a separate chimney for the coal stove.

 
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Post by 009to090 » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 12:06 pm

Our local inspector says " Dedicated flue, or I no pass you"

Chris F.

 
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Post by PelletstoCoal » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 12:30 pm

I have installed gas boilers, gas stoves and a coal stove all had burn off period and none tripped my co alarms (3), the digital never registered any levels. Your exhaust pipe seems to have a downward dip in it, was this unavoidable? I would tend to agree with the thoughts of CO escaping via your oil furnace. Another thing to consider is (at least as I know, someone please correct me if i'm wrong) CO tends to collect at the floor and build upward, so that would mean your basement area would be required to be heavily saturated before it moved up to the first floor or could your distribution system (existing oil or newer ducting) be distributing the CO more rapidly? Either way CO should not be there, even a small amount is unacceptable. High CO concentrations will drop a man in minutes. By the time you feel a headace and dizzy (if that)it may be too late, you have seconds to evacuate to fresh air (if room heavily saturated). This happened in my area a few years back, a husband said to his wife that the boiler was acting up and he was going to check it out, then called 911, firemen arrived in time to save her but not him. CO poisioning is quicker than one might think. Call the installer or perhaps a more quallified one.

frank

edit: dis-regard the part regarding downward sloped pipe, I now see that hat is your oil appliance tie-in area. could these two be tied in at the flue with a wye, allowing a better draft to the stove if there is no other way. I think you exhaust piping config. is the villan here.

 
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AJtheNewbie
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Post by AJtheNewbie » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 12:42 pm

Alright...so I njust read all of the replies and this sent me into a mild panic...so I just wnt down and shut er down....and opened a few windows for some ventiation....I will give the installer a call...but I am a tad frustrated...I just paid him some decent money to install all of this...should he not have made me aware of the requirement for a dedicated flue or at least suggested it? He is the one that told me all he needed was a t connection to hook up to...grrrr.

So...other than calling him and asking him to look at it - which who knows how long that will take....it seems like I could just disconnect the oil furnace form the t connection and cap the t off (which some of you suggested) so only the coal stove is using the flue into the chimney - this should solve any potential issue of CO backing down another piep and getting out that way corrrect?

Someone mentioned flue pipes being seal correctly - is there something more to it than them being fitted together properly and screwed?

I guess I could also try to get my hand on a manometer to check things...as far as the draft - I checked and I do have a Type R-C Calibrated Draft Control "unit" in the T flue on the opposite side of where you see the coal stove flue entering the T in the pics...is this what one of you were referring to as a Baro-damper? As far as the Draft control being adjusted correctly - it is just set to whatever it was when we moved in 2 years ago. Will I be able to diagnose the draft issue?...with the manometer (how difficult are they to use?)...or does it need to be checked by someone else?

Thanks for the help so far....


 
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Post by WNY » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 12:55 pm

Yes, that RC is the Baro Damper, but it looks like it's after the TEE of the 2 appliances. It will not regulate correctly, EACH one should have it's own, if the same type of fuel (if required). The Baro should be closer to the Coal Stove, probably in the vertical section behind it, but not a big deal where's it at if the pipe was only dedicated to the one or the other device.

Yes, unhooking the furnace and capping the tee off would be a good start if you wanted only the coal to run, just make sure you lock-out or disconnect your oil furnace from coming on at all!!

 
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Post by AJtheNewbie » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 1:05 pm

ok..so if I disconnect the oil furnace from the flue, cap it off, and make sure the oil furnace doesn't start up...I should still be able to use the furnace's fan only to distribute the heat through the ductwork - it's hooked up with a seperate switch for the coal that is triggered by the coal stove - so it's only utilizing the fan motor wihtout the oil furnace firing up...

In asking this - I am assuming that the CO would be coming from the coal stove through the exhaust flue...and not through the top of the stove where the ductwork is tied into my return air plenum

 
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Post by WNY » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 1:13 pm

More than likely, it was traveling down the pipe into your oil furnace and coming out the bottom where the burners are somewhere.since it looks like it slopes down..since it's probably not a sealed combustion, it has to get air from the basement. Therefore, if it can get air from the basement, the CO can also get out.

As for sealing the pipes, you can use some hi temp silicone or something, but the pipes are NORMALLY under a vacuum and SHOULD not leak, but wouldn't hurt to seal them up anyway.

 
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Post by AJtheNewbie » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 1:22 pm

Thanks...until I work out the details of getting a seperate flue cut into my chimney - I could get by with swapping out the appliances (whichever one I am using) by connecting them to the flue - only one at a time...couldn't I ?

And there is no leakage of Co out from the flue damper is there? Because that thing tilts and out (I am assuming in relation to the amount of draft) and is open to the flue pipe...I assume the draft "sucks" the gases past the damper opening without letting them escape form the flue pipe?

Thanks.

 
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Post by WNY » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 1:47 pm

Yes, as heat builds in the chimney, it PULL air/exhaust from the stove and the baro damper, that is how it regulates the Draft on the stove, as the Baro opens, it maintains a certain draft on the appliance, if more heat is coming out of the stove, the higher the draft, therefore, it has to compensate for this by opening more. Otherwise, you loose a lot of heat up your chimney and waste your fuel.

 
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Post by AJtheNewbie » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 1:53 pm

Alrigh...that helps to explain it more...so I will definitely get ahold of a manometer to make sure the draft settings are optimal...not only for safety, but for efficiency as well.

One other thing I did notice about the way it was installed...I am assuming this was done because of the tie in to my ductwork and using that as a means to distribute the heat...but I noticed that he removed the two larger fans from that Hyfire that were on the rear near the bottom...there are still the two smaller one on the bac of the stove...but why would he have removed those larger fans...now there are just the openings where the fans were attached....nothing would be coming out of those would it?

Thanks.

 
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Post by rberq » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 4:07 pm

AJtheNewbie wrote:until I work out the details of getting a separate flue cut into my chimney
Maybe some confusion in terminology here. It looks like you have a single-flue chimney, meaning a single smoke passage inside the concrete blocks. Yes? No?

You could cut another hole into the flue, so the pipes from the two appliances enter the chimney separately, but of course that's not the same thing as a second flue. It may not be legal. It might work OK as long as your chimney can provide adequate draft for both the oil furnace AND the coal. Remember, if the oil burner is not a sealed burner with an air shutter that closes when it's off, then the chimney is always pulling air in through the burner. It is a constant "leak" into the system, reducing draft, as if you left open the chimney clean-out door. One solution would be to change the burner. Alternatively I think you can get a motorized damper that goes in the stove pipe between furnace and chimney to stop the "leak".

Again, two appliances into the same chimney flue might not be legal per your local building codes. And again, it would work only IF the chimney is adequate. I wonder if your installer is licensed, or if he is supposed to be?

 
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Post by AJtheNewbie » Sat. Feb. 14, 2009 5:02 pm

Hey..thanks for the clarification....I was thinking that the problem was the 2 appliances entering the chimney through the same flue pipe and that both entering seperately would be alright. You are correct - it is a single flue chimney.

So let me ask this - the comment about the chimney needing to be adequate for both appliances would only be true if I was running both at the same time - which would never be the case. My plan was to only run the coal stove during the winter season - I left the oil furnace in place only to use the fan from the furnace to distribute the hot air form the coal stove through the ductwork and as an opition for any future homeowners to have something else if they didn't like the coal idea. I guess I would never have left them both hooked up if the installer had made me aware of these potential issues.

Now - with the CO Issue - in order to use the coal stove for the reiander of the winter - I think I am going to disconnect the flue pipe for the oil furnace and cap off the T so the flue into the chimney is only being used by the coal stove. With this setup the oil burner would never be in use while the coal stove is working - In essence the oil furnace would not be in use - only its fan motor via a thermostat switch hooked up the coal stove. Unless I am not seeing something I think this shoud work...


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