Econo Stove Blower Problems

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:41 am

Is there any other reasoning besides the generator? I talked with some electrical engineers at work who tell me that the output from a generator is a pretty perfect sine wave.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:50 am

Johnshan wrote:I talked with some electrical engineers at work who tell me that the output from a generator is a pretty perfect sine wave.
I think it depends on how the generator is wound or configured whether or not it is a true sine wave.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:32 pm

Johnshan wrote:Is there any other reasoning besides the generator? I talked with some electrical engineers at work who tell me that the output from a generator is a pretty perfect sine wave.



Not trying to knock anyone . A generator produces a DC output then is converted to a sine wave ,how well this is done is what determines the quality of the power.If it is done properly all is well . But the cheap gensets use cheap electronics as well that's where the problems come from . An alternator creates a true sine wave the frequency is controlled by either the # of poles and or the speed /RPM . I have seen and heard of the cheaper generators cause a lot of damage either over voltage or under voltage ,spikes and surges .Not saying this caused the problem or didn't but I don't think I would discredit it totally.Dave
Flyer5
 
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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:11 am

I am the guy with the generator who cant get the stove to run on it.

I have an O-scope and will be taking some readings from my generator tomorrow, I need to make sure I can run this stove on my gen.

My father runs an Alaska Channing on the same generator with no ill effects- I assume he has different motor types.

I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.
Last edited by Johnshan on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gambler On: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:39 pm

Johnshan wrote: I assume he has different motor types.
I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.


I will be willing to bet Alaska uses the same fans that LL uses.

I would also check the output of your fathers generator and compare to yours. Even though they are the same model, his may produce cleaner power. What brand of generator is it?
gambler
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Matthaus On: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:50 pm

Johnshan wrote:My father runs an Alaska Channing on the same generator with no ill effects- I assume he has different motor types.

I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.


Virtually all stovemanufacturers use essentially the same shaded pole fan motors, either made by fasco (also produced with the dayton name) or AO Smith. The thing to remember is that the Coal-Trol uses an automatically controlled speed controller with electronic circuit board VS the rheostat that is used on the Alaska. This would be the key if there are power problems caused by the generator.

Running any stove that is controlled by a Coal-Trol on a generator can result in an issue of the power is not true sine and fairly clean. I would be interested to see what you find with the O-scope. Keep us posted, we always like a good science project! :D
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:31 pm

Alright here it is, pretty rough waveform:

Image


The generator is a Coleman Powermate, while it is a Coleman it has a good quality (Subaru) 10 hp engine.
Image



Everything else in the house works great. Time to build a filter or UPS system.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Matthaus On: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:43 pm

WOAH! Tha O-Scope screen shot is not the power to be used with an electronic speed control (as is found in the Coal-trol), no wonder you had fan problems! The idea for a pure sine UPS is a good one, there are several threads on here with some good suggestions. Not everyone on here has access or the know how to read their generator output as you did, suffice to say folks be careful using any kind of inverter or generator to run your Coal-Trol!

Thanks Johnshan for sharing, very interesting. :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:12 pm

My understanding is that unless you purchase a VERY high end generator your likley to have a similar waveform. I will figure out a way to smooth this out.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:26 pm

Hey Johnshan,

Did you ever get that generator straightened out ????


Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
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Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: WNY On: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:55 am

I plugged my keystoker into my generator, no problems, no noise, seemed to work just fine. Will test the Hyfire with Coaltrol once I fire it up to see what it does.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:55 pm

WNY,

Last year we had an outage. I fired up the Troy Built Generator. In our house I have a generator panel which has the AA 260 ,well pump, etc. connected to it. Across the driveway I ran an extension cord to the sister in law's Alaska Cast Console with the original Alaska controls. I think it fried the stoker motor. Shortly after that day, she started having problems. We eventually replaced the motor under warrany I think. But all of these threads got me a thinkin'........ :gee:




Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: WNY On: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:46 pm

Thanks!
I will check....also, the keystoker motors all run 100%, there is no rheostats on them, so with the generator, that might be okay, but when you start slowing them down with rheostat, that might be a problem with some generators? not sure, but doesn't hurt to test them. Like with the coaltrol, it varies the convection motors, if I have to, I will plug them in direct so as not to burn them out if it becomes a problem.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:09 pm

Hmmmm.......

Never thought about the use of the rheostat slowing them down to maybe a problem speed. :doh:

You know THAT could be the whole problem with using generators. Those stinking rheostats. Now if only I knew someone with an oscilloscope that could check my generator's output with and without the use of rheostats. Just something else to think about ..................



Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: coal berner On: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:35 pm

Matthaus wrote:
Johnshan wrote:My father runs an Alaska Channing on the same generator with no ill effects- I assume he has different motor types.

I think it is the nature of the cheap shaded pole motor, they just cant handle the modified waveforms as well as quality fans do.


Virtually all stovemanufacturers use essentially the same shaded pole fan motors, either made by fasco (also produced with the dayton name) or AO Smith. The thing to remember is that the Coal-Trol uses an automatically controlled speed controller with electronic circuit board VS the rheostat that is used on the Alaska. This would be the key if there are power problems caused by the generator.

Running any stove that is controlled by a Coal-Trol on a generator can result in an issue of the power is not true sine and fairly clean. I would be interested to see what you find with the O-scope. Keep us posted, we always like a good science project! :D

Jakel motor inc . was another one Alaska was using a few years ago until Fasco bought them out .
Not sure about fasco owning AO smith motors Emerson motor Co. Owned Dayton motor there was a recall in 99 2000
first link below

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml01/01504.html

http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/c ... any=317756


http://fasco.com/blow1a.asp
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.



http://www.aosmithmotors.com/aboutus/landing.aspx?id=36&ekmensel=fb5d653b_6_7_btnlink
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
coal berner
 
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