Econo Stove Blower Problems

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Matthaus On: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:44 pm

So based on your issue with the blower not liking the power output of the Coal-Trol while on gen power, here is what I would do if in your shoes. I would wire up a manual transfer switch and cord with a rheostat in series so that when the power failed I would operate the fan on manual control through a rheostat by flipping a switch. Not exactly the most of automatic systems but it would be simple and cheap to rig up. I am assuming that the rest of the Coal-Trol features are working while on back up power, if that is the case the fan would run at whatever speed you set it on and the feeder would feed based on set point Vs Room temp.

Sorry for your hassle with this issue, keep us posted on your progress. :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:00 am

Alright I did some more testing yesterday, I took the generator apart and wired in a capacitor in an attempt to clean the dc power up a bit. I checked the o-scope and it didnt show any sign of improvement, back to the drawing board.

I also tested the stove again, and now I am having trouble with the combustion blower, I could hardly get the stove started (while on the generator).

Looks as though your right, I need to set it up some cords with rheostats so I can totally bypass the coal trol while on generator power- for all 3 motors.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:59 pm

Johnshan wrote:Alright I did some more testing yesterday, I took the generator apart and wired in a capacitor in an attempt to clean the dc power up a bit. I checked the o-scope and it didnt show any sign of improvement, back to the drawing board.

I also tested the stove again, and now I am having trouble with the combustion blower, I could hardly get the stove started (while on the generator).

Looks as though your right, I need to set it up some cords with rheostats so I can totally bypass the coal trol while on generator power- for all 3 motors.




Or call the MFG of the generator and see if they have a solution . The problem is not with the DC side of the generator it is a issue with the A/C or output side . Sounds like they have a poor inverter circuit causing the issues . The only solution I can think of would be a line reactor in the output side of the generator before feeding the house or at least one for the coal trol . Not sure on price for one that would solve your issues but you should be able to find something .
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:06 pm

You need to look deeper then just saying its an AC output problem. Any inconsistencies in the dc excitation in the generator and your AC is affected, if I can smooth out the dc side it will also smooth out the AC side.

To be honest I didnt want to deal with the generator end because as I said before, this isnt a generator problem, its a coal trol issue- the darn thing is just too sensitive. I really think there needs to be statement about these issues, very, very few residential generators will give you a perfect sine wave- I cannot stress this enough. I would also assume that coal trol / LL would want to take a stand on this issue to avoid warranty claims on burned out devices (motors) that were ruined from running on a common household genset.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: pvolcko On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:08 pm

Johnshan wrote:I also tested the stove again, and now I am having trouble with the combustion blower, I could hardly get the stove started (while on the generator).


If you're also having trouble with the combustion blower then that would indicate this is not a Coal-trol issue. Assuming the voltage level from the generator is reasonable and there's been no damage to the Coal-trol circuitry, the circuit running the combustion blower is a simple relay connecting the blower to wall power, no speed control, power filtering, or other transforming at all. It is the equivalent of a light switch turning the blower on.

There are problems that can occur on the relay control side, but you would hear the relay(s) chattering like crazy, and those problems would also be the result of poor input power (again assuming no damage). Significant under-voltage, sizable moving frequency drift from 60hz, "lumpy" or jagged power waveform, and phasing problems where one half of the power sine is out of time or voltage balance with the other half could all lead to degraded performance on relay controlled outputs (Combustion, Igniter, Aux) and major timing problems on the speed controlled outputs (stoker and convection).

But, like I said, if the unit is working fine on normal power and you are having problems with the combustion blower on generator power, then there is likely some kind of fundamental power incompatibility with the motors which is also causing the speed control output problems.
pvolcko
 

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:31 pm

Johnshan,

Did you put the o scope on your father's generator ???? Maybe his is putting out a better wave than yours does. In my opinion it seems like the whole issue boils down to your particular generator. Checking Pop's generator may help narrow the problem.

While on the other hand you appear to find fault with both LL and Coaltrol. There are many, many satisfied customers of their products that are not experiencing the issues that you seem to have.

Just my thoughts and not meant to upset anyone. I'm sorry if I have, but I know no other way to say this.


-------------------------------------------------------------


Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:21 am

Johnshan wrote: I would also assume that coal trol / LL would want to take a stand on this issue to avoid warranty claims on burned out devices (motors) that were ruined from running on a common household genset.



Careful when you assume . As far as I know that has never been the case ,and will never be the case as long as Matt and I own the company .And I know for a fact that Automation Correct stands firmly behind there products as well .If there is an issue with any of our products we will be very involved with finding a solution, as to why we are here . You are asking the controller to do something that it really is not designed for and we are trying to find a resolution to your issue ,we may or may not but we will always try our best . So before you go assuming something stand back and look at the big picture if we were trying to just pass blame we would have ignored this thread a long time ago .This is the last I will say on this .
Now lets get back to trying to fix your problem.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:20 am

Rick 386 wrote:Johnshan,

Did you put the o scope on your father's generator ???? Maybe his is putting out a better wave than yours does. In my opinion it seems like the whole issue boils down to your particular generator. Checking Pop's generator may help narrow the problem.

While on the other hand you appear to find fault with both LL and Coaltrol. There are many, many satisfied customers of their products that are not experiencing the issues that you seem to have.

Just my thoughts and not meant to upset anyone. I'm sorry if I have, but I know no other way to say this.


-------------------------------------------------------------


Rick


I have not put the o-scope on his generator, he has had no issues with his coal stove because he is not running the same setup as my LL- theres no coal trol on it.

Please don't mistake my frustration with the coal trol for being uphappy with my stove, I love the stove, but it is unusable on anything but grid power.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:22 am

Flyer5 wrote:
Johnshan wrote: I would also assume that coal trol / LL would want to take a stand on this issue to avoid warranty claims on burned out devices (motors) that were ruined from running on a common household genset.



Careful when you assume . As far as I know that has never been the case ,and will never be the case as long as Matt and I own the company .And I know for a fact that Automation Correct stands firmly behind there products as well .If there is an issue with any of our products we will be very involved with finding a solution, as to why we are here . You are asking the controller to do something that it really is not designed for and we are trying to find a resolution to your issue ,we may or may not but we will always try our best . So before you go assuming something stand back and look at the big picture if we were trying to just pass blame we would have ignored this thread a long time ago .This is the last I will say on this .
Now lets get back to trying to fix your problem.


That is exactly correct- the controler (coal trol) was not designed to run on anything but a perfect sine wave- something no common household generator can produce. This should be noted to consumers- thats all I am saying.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:28 am

pvolcko wrote:
Johnshan wrote:I also tested the stove again, and now I am having trouble with the combustion blower, I could hardly get the stove started (while on the generator).


If you're also having trouble with the combustion blower then that would indicate this is not a Coal-trol issue. Assuming the voltage level from the generator is reasonable and there's been no damage to the Coal-trol circuitry, the circuit running the combustion blower is a simple relay connecting the blower to wall power, no speed control, power filtering, or other transforming at all. It is the equivalent of a light switch turning the blower on.

There are problems that can occur on the relay control side, but you would hear the relay(s) chattering like crazy, and those problems would also be the result of poor input power (again assuming no damage). Significant under-voltage, sizable moving frequency drift from 60hz, "lumpy" or jagged power waveform, and phasing problems where one half of the power sine is out of time or voltage balance with the other half could all lead to degraded performance on relay controlled outputs (Combustion, Igniter, Aux) and major timing problems on the speed controlled outputs (stoker and convection).

But, like I said, if the unit is working fine on normal power and you are having problems with the combustion blower on generator power, then there is likely some kind of fundamental power incompatibility with the motors which is also causing the speed control output problems.



Thanks a lot for your input. Theres something wierd going on here. If I go off the grid and on the generator for even 1 minute the coal trol will not run correctly even on grid power when I switch back to it- it acts confused for hours then all is well.

The generator puts out 120v +/- 2-3 volts consistently and no other devices in my home are giving me problems. This includes sensitive electronics.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:36 pm

One more thing you could try, unplug the convection fan and combustion fan from the Coal-Trol and unplug it from the wall, make sure you have a big enough fire to sustain it with no additional coal for as long as the test takes. Plug the convection fan and combustion fan into the backed up circuit. Then transfer power and observe the behavior of the motors, transfer back and then transfer again. See if you see any difference in their operation. This eliminates the Coal-Trol in the mix and tells you whether the motors don't like the generator as well.

Personally I would be looking to ditch this generator and not tempt fate, just because the other items in he house are seemingly behaving normally doesn't mean some type of generator induced failure is not imminent. your deduction that the Coal-Trol will not run on anything but the grid has yet to be proven, but thanks for the heads up, I will run some tests using my cheap Coleman generator at home and post them in this thread to provide some more information. :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: 009to090 On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:48 pm

Matthaus wrote:. your deduction that the Coal-Trol will not run on anything but the grid has yet to be proven, but thanks for the heads up, I will run some tests using my cheap Coleman generator at home and post them in this thread to provide some more information. :)

Matt, If you have access to an inverter, test the coal-trol on that also. :idea: I'll be happy to loan you mine, as my DVC-500 runs great on the Pure Sinewave inverter, but it literally GROANS, when I put it on the generator.
Besides my DVC-500 not liking my generator output, I have burned up my radon fan motor 3 times, due to running the generator during loss of street power. (I have since moved the radon fan circuit off the xfer switch).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but being UL Approved, does not include Modified Sinewave from any source.
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:54 pm

Matt, great idea, I can certainly try that as well, thanks.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:35 pm

The blowers work fine directly plugged into the generator, this is a coal trol issue for sure.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:58 am

Did you notice any relay chatter like I mentioned earlier in the thread? I can't think of a reason why the combustion fan wouldn't work properly through the Coal-trol. It should run just as well as when you plugged it into the wall. The convection fan could have problems because of the speed control circuit we use and it's sensitivity to AC power quality, but the combustion fan is on a simple mechanical relay and should run the fan just as well as plugging it into the wall, especially since the Coal-trol does nothing to actually control the combustion fan as a general matter. It turns on the combustion fan at startup and it is left running. The only exception is if you have an igniter installed and have the Coal-trol set to use the igniter, which I'm assuming is not the case here.

If you like you can call the shop and talk with Ed and/or Neil to see if they have any further ideas on what could be going on, 315-299-3589. They may or may not have been following this thread so you may have to endure their positing many of the same ideas and tests that have been floated here before you get to something new. :)
pvolcko
 

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