Delima!!What would you do ?

Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:15 pm

I hired a person to do my upstairs bath after only 10yrs of me trying to get to it and it still wasn't done . He came with very good references and did everything I wanted and did a very nice job . Well the guy he has doing the tile work was here hanging the hardy board around the shower on Tuesday . I explained that when he put the durarok on the floor to only use 1" screws in between the joists as I have Pex tubing under the flooring .The ply wood is only 19/32 or 5/8 and the rok is 1/2 . I said mark where the joists are and use longer there but I specifically said I want nothing protruding through the floor . So I come home from a less than perfect day at work and find he is using 1 1/4 roofing nails with a air nailer .I started to lose it there but held my temper and just tried to put it off as I was being irrational because of the less than perfect day at the mill and let him finish the 2 last sheets . His explanation was he didnt think the 1" screws would hold as well as the 1 1/4 roofing nails (what am I an idiot 1" screws would hold a lot more than a 1 1/4 nail ?) . Well that night I didn't get any sleep it just kept stewing away at me . Questions like will I come home from work a few yrs from now and find my dining room ceiling on the floor and find a nail was rubbing away at the tubing . So I called the guy that I originally hired and told him that I was pissed and unsure what to do . He said he will look at it . Then after looking at it said its no big deal and they will just hack away at the floor and re do it . It took my wife and me hrs of cleaning the dust from the first time because he used a circ saw to cut the dura rock . They will have to hack the floor now because to get the plywood up there are walls and a tub over parts of it .
Today I pressure tested the loop to 100lbs and it seems to be holding .But what if something is rubbing on a nail or is damaged ? I was able to get to an area just under the edge of the wall and get some pics . The nails are down about 3/16" through the plywood . There is no tubing in this section but the nails are no more than 8" apart through the whole floor . :mad:
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Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: billw On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:28 pm

I'd make him pull the dam nails out or not get paid. You specifically told him what you wanted and chose to do it his way anyway. Make him pull the nails then show him the door.
billw
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520
Stove/Furnace Model: GOODBYE OIL COMPANY

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:41 pm

This is why you didn't get it done in ten years.....because you were afraid of WTF might happen if you hired someone. I know this was straightforward, but most folks don't have any experience with radiant or rubber roofs, or coal boilers, etc....or reading or listening to the directions...or just asking WHY?
The mess will get cleaned up, but you are absolutely right to be angry. Communication was misplaced somewhere, but that doesn't need to cause a heart attack. You will get through this, and everything will be a learning experience. Sucks, but not badly enough to die over. Roofing nails vs screws.....hmmmmm. My money is on the screws, brittle as they are.

Bill: you can't remove the nails because the brittle nature of the Durarok will just cause it to break apart.
Dave: Is it possible to do a surface mount heat instead of the radiant? Just thinking out loud.....cutting the plywood out to remove the nails will be a real PITA because of things at the edges...and having proper nailing after they cut it out for replacement. Can only the areas where piping runs be cut out more easily. You don't want to end up with more problems than you have now. I've seen the kitchen ceiling on the floor because the prewire guy drilled a copper pipe in between floors.....with a pilot bit. Insulation sopped up the water...then we got a call saying a pipe was not soldered or broken. It was cellulose insulation all over a 25K granite top and high end appliances. The are not enough inappropiate words to cover my feelings that day..... so I hear where you are coming from....down the road if you leave it alone now.
Last edited by whistlenut on Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB


Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:43 pm

I assume you have not fully paid for the job yet, right? (if so...you can call the shots)
If you paid him via credit card, you can still refute his charges. Federal law protects you & the bank MUST investigate any claim)
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:02 pm

Devil, it AIN'T about the law! You have been working for the bureaucrats too long. It's about living to see another day without a pacemaker or after stroke therapy! The money won't even be an issue I'll bet. It's about making something positive out of a F***ing problem. :mad: :roll: :o

Dave, if they removed the Durarok and the nails and started over, would you be comfortable with the possibility that nothing penetrated the 'safe zone' around the pex? You and I both know the pex flexes when heated, and that would be what I would be worried about over time.
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:33 pm

Thats my problem . Do I possibly make more of a mess by having them rip everything out or take a chance that everything will be ok . I want the radiant floor heat thats why I went through the trouble of putting it in . I am mad because of the fact that just the day before I had explained it to him . I guess that is why I do most things for myself . The contractor is doing a great job and I feel bad he will have to absorb this . But I also explained that I do not expect this to cost me any more than the work that I asked for ,not the rework and extra cost of materials . The tile person will not be back .He is friends with the contractor but I can't have someone working for me who thinks I don't know anything and does the opposite that I ask . After all it is my money .
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:45 pm

Dave, I say you should have them pull up the cement board and all the nails, then do another pressure test on the pex and see if that holds. If you could feel confident that everything is ok then have your contractor start over and do it your way.

What kind of ceiling below? maybe make small patchable holes and use an optic probe to check for any signs of a leak, just thinking out loud.
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:49 pm

JB Sparks wrote:Dave, I say you should have them pull up the cement board and all the nails, then do another pressure test on the pex and see if that holds. If you could feel confident that everything is ok then have your contractor start over and do it your way.

What kind of ceiling below? maybe make small patchable holes and use an optic probe to check for any signs of a leak, just thinking out loud.

Plus there is 8 or 10" of fiberglass insulation
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Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:51 pm

Take a deep breath and think about the resolution. If they take up the durarok and pull all the nails (1 1/4" ones) are you confident that nothing has damaged or compromised the pex. It is very forgiving, however you don't want to have to deal with a repair later. If you think that after all the nails come out, and that no penetration has occurred, you could once again re rock it, glue and screw it down and sleep peacefully. A total removal is a much bigger issue, and you will have to see how that works out for yourself. If you have a cats paw or a wonder bar, try removing the roofers yourself. If they come right out, you will be happy knowing that. I know this is about making it right, and that is why I have lost lots of sleep in the last 40 years in this business. Doesn't matter if it is dirtwork, concrete, framing, electrical, plumbing, insulation, heat/ac....or a durarok mistake; you can fix it and not die or become disabled because of it. :crutch: :hammer: :doh: :pepsi:
Looks like you may miss the big snowstorm out where you are. Nasty mess upcoming for the NE..all the way back to Alabama!
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: jjmason On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:52 pm

Flyer5 wrote:It took my wife and me hrs of cleaning the dust from the first time because he used a circ saw to cut the dura rock


Apparently this tile contractor has little regard for customer satisfaction. Never in my years in the buisness would I have cut a dusty material like Durock in someone's finished house. :x
jjmason
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: stoker stove II

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:53 pm

PS: Nice recess for the chandelier. Octagons........I understand your dilemma.

Already addressed: Don't cut material within the residence. On a tarp outside......
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: 009to090 On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:08 pm

Have him rip it out. You told him how you wanted it installed, and he should have conveyed those instructions to the sub. I don't use nails in Durarok. Nails WILL cause squeaking. ONLY use screws. 1" in field, 1 1/2" into joists. You have no idea if the pex was compromised. Contracter has to pay for removal and inspection.

And , NOBODY cuts Durarok inside. JEEZ! Where did he find this sub?????
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
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Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:24 pm

Wow, Ok forget the ceiling, I'm feeling your pain. Tell you what, Have the contractor fix it the best he can and if it's not to your satisfaction just call whistlenut and for real small fee he'll go down and fix the fix. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Instead of the opening the ceiling, open the floor just enough for an inspection of the pex, stay away from the walls. Plywood is just as easy to patch as sheetrock... well almost as easy. Actually, that is what whistlenut is saying.
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: mr1precision On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:29 pm

This exactly why I hate subbing stuff out! If you have to stand over their shoulder to make sure its right, you might as well have done it yourself.
If it were me I would talk to him and tell him your concerns. Give him two choices.
A. Pull it up and do it over.
Or
B. Guarantee that it will never be a problem in writing or he pays for ALL damages. Plus the cost to do it over again.

This way the decision is all his. :D
mr1precision
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130

Re: Delima!!What would you do ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:51 pm

DVC500_at_last wrote:Have him rip it out. You told him how you wanted it installed, and he should have conveyed those instructions to the sub. I don't use nails in Durarok. Nails WILL cause squeaking. ONLY use screws. 1" in field, 1 1/2" into joists. You have no idea if the pex was compromised. Contracter has to pay for removal and inspection.

And , NOBODY cuts Durarok inside. JEEZ! Where did he find this sub?????



He did convey it to the sub because I spoke to him days earlier . Then I spoke to the sub myself just the day before he did this . I just spent the last few hrs off an on pulling the nails I could get .Now I have to dig through the mortered joints to find those nails. Here are some pics .
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Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
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