Can the Govt really fix the economy?

Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:40 pm

BillMarti wrote:I don't see thru your rose coloured glasses. This I know You can't fix anything with no money if we were in a 1 Trillion dollar debt which means we're beyond broke where did the additional 4+ trillion come from and don't resort to we borrowed it nobody makes a loan knowing it's not going to be paid back. So explain the math -1 + -4 = -5 I understand quite well smoke and mirrors. Mom only raised 1 fool and thats my brother and did I mention he a democrat.

Bill S.

You may not believe no one makes a loan without expecting to get paid but isn't that at least in part what got us to where we are now? China has a 3 trillion dollar trade surplus. That's not the kind of money you leave under the mattress. So China buys US Treasury bills. Which we have to pay back with interest. So it is in fact a loan. But China isn't worried about getting paid back. They can always foreclose.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: brckwlt On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:42 pm

China owns our country ... thats a little scary if you ask me
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:48 pm

Devil505 wrote:
jpete wrote:Doesn't make 'em right! There is a reason that newspapers are written at an 8th grade level. ;)


So now we don't like Democracy Jeff?

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Winston Churchill

No I don't really care for democracy. Neither did the Founding Fathers. That's why they set up a Representative Republic. See what I mean about an informed electorate? ;)
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:25 pm

jpete wrote:No I don't really care for democracy. Neither did the Founding Fathers. That's why they set up a Representative Republic. See what I mean about an informed electorate? ;)


I agree that it is better if the electorate is "Informed" therefore here is some information:




I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

SUMMARY
In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy." I invite you to join me in raising public awareness regarding that distinction.

A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]


The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=Republic+Vs+Democracy&page=1&qsrc=6&ab=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1215.org%2Flawnotes%2Flawnotes%2Frepvsdem.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.




For the sake of general discussion (& Churchill's quote)The United States IS in fact a Democracy in that Democracy is a form of government in which power is held directly or indirectly by citizens under a free electoral system, it is specifically a Representative Democracy formed by a Republic to ensure individual's rights against the majority.. (Republicans are not the only people who can torture & twist the English language to suit their goals :P )
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:23 pm

:flush:
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: LeonMSPT On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:50 pm

Yeah, and if we had a hangover after 8 years of Bush, we could have used a "hair of the dog". What we got was a bigger, hungrier dog, with his friends, to bite us again and again and again and again....

mr1precision wrote:I would answer this question with a question. What does the government do better than the private sector? Besides waste money and get fatter and dumber. I feel like the government is out on a bender and we the taxpayers are suffering with the hangover. :mad:
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:46 pm

What you lost, with the profligate spending of the right from Reagan through Bush II, was the complete loss of all conservative cred on matters economic.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:33 am

stockingfull wrote:What you lost, with the profligate spending of the right from Reagan through Bush II, was the complete loss of all conservative cred on matters economic.


At least Reagan cut taxes, to a degree, to balance some of that spending.

So in your opinion, out of control spending buy R's = bad but out of control spending by D's = good?

It all leads to the same place. Bankruptcy. But keep cheering on the home team Stocking, you'll soon get what you want. And destroy the country.

You sound like one of my kids when they get in a fight "He started it!" It doesn't work with my five year old and it certainly shouldn't work with one of the two major political parties.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:45 pm

Jeff, all I was saying is that, as a practical matter, you "libs" ( ;) I mean libertarians), at least the purists among you, are among the last who have any cred at all arguing for reduction of gov't spending at all, because, since the quaint days of Goldwater, the libertarians have been the last of the fiscally conservative Mohicans, so to speak. But you had a horse in the last race and he didn't win, either. Reagan began the fiscal destruction of the GOP, and it continued through 1/20/09.

Yes, Ronnie Ray-guns cut taxes -- ONCE. He also increased them 5 times and ballooned the deficit and vastly increased the size of the federal government. "Hero Reagan" actually forged the unholy coalition between the nut-job religious right, the
"free marketeers" and the "military-industrial-complex," then sawed off the fiscal conservatives and melted the nation's credit card with deficit spending, a practice that both Bushes continued in spades until the whole thing blew to smithereens last fall.

So what I was and am saying is that the right has no cred in its discovery of fiscal religion right now. We're in a big hole and, given the very limited choices, spending to get out of it is the one Bush chose before the election, and the one Obama said he'd choose before the election, and the one the electorate voted on, and the one we're doing.
Last edited by stockingfull on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:47 pm

Senate's Conrad sees $1.6 trillion in extra deficit
U.S. Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad said on Thursday he expects federal deficit spending will be about $1.6 trillion greater over the next ten years than President Barack Obama's budget plan forecasts.

Conrad told reporters that the additional $1.6 trillion over the next decade was based on projections of the Democratic majority's budget committee staff.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/ ... liticsNews

This is above and Beyond the Stim-Pak. :crazy:
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:52 pm

"Budget overruns" are suddenly a problem, Ed?

Were they when we were fighting the Iraq war?

The GOP has less credibility on this issue than Ted Kennedy had at the Clarence Thomas hearings. :rofl:
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:50 pm

stockingfull wrote:"Budget overruns" are suddenly a problem, Ed?

Were they when we were fighting the Iraq war?

The GOP has less credibility on this issue than Ted Kennedy had at the Clarence Thomas hearings. :rofl:


It still doesn't make it right. Like I tell my five year old. "I don't care who started it!" Are you going to hold your breath 'til you turn blue now?

Tell me that in your life that spending more than you make year after year is the right thing to do. Do you run your life like that?
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:53 pm

Jeff, it's not that I don't understand your position. What I'm saying is that it's a political "no-sale" right now.

The right has no cred to push it, and only themselves to blame.

That's why the phony "Reagan Revolution" is stone dead.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:59 pm

stockingfull wrote:Jeff, it's not that I don't understand your position. What I'm saying is that it's a political "no-sale" right now.

The right has no cred to push it, and only themselves to blame.

That's why the phony "Reagan Revolution" is stone dead.


Jon that's just.....just kinda lame.
The RR is not some revisionist history ball to kick around. It created the base that allowed Democrat Presidents to ride his on coattails and claim moral superiority. Hell even the Teleprompter told Barry to invoke RR's name in an effort to bridge divides over his ideas.
The Majority of Americans still look back and say those years are some of the finest in American history. The term "Reagan Democrats" still invokes fear into the hearts and minds of modern day leftists.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:20 pm

Reagan cut taxes in name only, he also changed the income tax deductions we all used to be able to claim & he made the # of employed appear higher by counting the armed forces.
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