Can the Govt really fix the economy?

Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: leowis1 On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:44 pm

I realize that this is an incredibly deep topic. Feel free to take it where ever you want. But can govt spending really turn the economy around? I say no. This is not a dig against Obama, but this economy is soo much bigger than the govt. Everybody is cutting back and living within their means. Which is smart. But its the worst thing to count on to turn an economy around. If people who lived through the Great Depression could see how we live our lives today, they would role over in their grave. I'm sure everybody on this forum is living within their means because they heat with coal. That says something.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:52 pm

I think an honest answer to you sincere question is that .......if you got 10 economists in the room to answer that question, you would undoubtedly get 10 different answers. We're playing "Craps" here & President Obama has the dice. I intend to blow on them for luck, cross my fingers & watch em fly!
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:58 pm

leowis1 wrote: Everybody is cutting back and living within their means.


Except the government. See the problem?
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:00 pm

The best analogy I have heard so far goes something like this :

The "economy" is a force, an entity. It's made up of so many small contributing parts that NOTHING can have absolute control over it.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:02 pm

Black_And_Blue wrote:The best analogy I have heard so far goes something like this :

The "economy" is a force, an entity. It's made up of so many small contributing parts that NOTHING can have absolute control over it.


But it can be "influenced". And government influence is generally bad influence.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: mr1precision On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 pm

I would answer this question with a question. What does the government do better than the private sector? Besides waste money and get fatter and dumber. I feel like the government is out on a bender and we the taxpayers are suffering with the hangover. :mad:
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: leowis1 On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:10 pm

The Govt is allowed to spend. I read a book a little while ago called "The Forgotten Man". It was about the Great Depression and all the bad decisions that made it worse. It was a very dense book and I wouldn't recommend it. Obviously, one of the winning solutions was govt spending. Noteably the Tennessee Valley Authority and The Hoover Dam. There was no electricy in the south or west back then. Building this infrastructure was a catalyst for growth. However, the unemployement rate in 1939 or 1940 was almost 15%! Some say WW2 ended the Great Depression.

But we live in a different world than the 30s. Green energy is NOT going to be a catalyst for growth. How much more can you sink into education? America is developed. I think people lived way past their means and this new lifestyle is a permanent correction. But a lot of pain is going to come from that. Without a job, I cannot pay my mortgage. Nobody can. I'm working. Thank God for that. But I hope that ax doesn't fall on me.
leowis1
 

Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:18 pm

leowis1 wrote:The Govt is allowed to spend. I read a book a little while ago called "The Forgotten Man".


I thought you were talking about this Forgotten Man.

The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man.


http://mises.org/daily/2485

A and B are the president and Congress. D is the recipient of social programs. C is the taxpayer.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:29 pm

mr1precision wrote:I would answer this question with a question. What does the government do better than the private sector? Besides waste money and get fatter and dumber. I feel like the government is out on a bender and we the taxpayers are suffering with the hangover. :mad:


Except your little argument is wrong in that it's pretty well accepted that it was the lack of government oversight that got us into this crisis in the first place. (Lack of oversight let your beloved "Private Sector" get greedy & cheat when there were no umpires on the field of play, because they had been banned from the game).
Last edited by Devil505 on Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:34 pm

230+ years ago men died for freedom and ideals greater than themselves.

They fought against the same powers that sought to control their lives.

Their sacrifices have been squandered and frittered away and may soon evaporate into the ether.

"Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it." John Adams
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:40 pm

Devil505 wrote:
mr1precision wrote:I would answer this question with a question. What does the government do better than the private sector? Besides waste money and get fatter and dumber. I feel like the government is out on a bender and we the taxpayers are suffering with the hangover. :mad:


Except your little argument is wrong in that it's pretty well accepted that it was the lack of government oversight that got us into this crisis in the first place. (Lack of oversight let your beloved "Private Sector" get greedy & cheat when there were no umpires on the field of play, because they had been banned from the game).


So it's the private sectors fault that the SEC didn't do it's job? Even when it was point out to them TEN YEARS AGO what guys like Madoff were doing!?

Sorry Devil. You can't blame the private sector for government's failings.

Who's fault was it the Chris Dodd, Jack Reed, and Barney Frank were taking money from the banking industry while they sat on THE BANKING COMMITTEE?!

Who's the fool Devil? The fool, of the fool who follows?
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:41 pm

The arguments are timeless and the truths self evident. We can debate here all day but why bother, it has already been done before.....

"The way to have safe government is not to trust it all to the one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to everyone exactly the functions in which he is competent....To let the National Government be entrusted with the defense of the nation, and it's foreign and federal relations..... The State Governments with the Civil Rights, Laws, Police and administration of what concerns the State generally. The Counties with the local concerns, and each ward direct the interests within itself. It is by dividing and subdividing these Republics from the great national one down through all it's subordinations until it ends in the administration of everyman's farm by himself, by placing under everyone what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best." Thomas Jefferson
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska 140

Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:48 pm

jpete wrote:So it's the private sectors fault that the SEC didn't do it's job?



I said:
Devil505 wrote:Lack of oversight let your beloved "Private Sector" get greedy & cheat when there were no umpires on the field of play, because they had been banned from the game


Obviously the fault was both:
1. The Bush administration banning effective oversight
2. Private Sector Greed

Do you seriously disagree with that?



jpete wrote:Sorry Devil. You can't blame the private sector for government's failings.


I blamed them both.

jpete wrote:Who's the fool Devil? The fool, of the fool who follows?


I submit the fool is the one who refuses to see or admit the truth. "There are none so blind as .....those who will not see."
Devil505
 
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:58 pm

Devil505 wrote:Obviously the fault was both:
1. The Bush administration banning effective oversight
2. Private Sector Greed

Do you seriously disagree with that?


So they prosecute Enron and WorldCom but let Madoff go, is that it? Are you alleging collusion in the government? The same government you trust to hold your hand from cradle to grave. Wait, wait, wait, don't tell me. All that magically "Change"d in November right? :D :shock: :roll: :lol:

All the guys who can't pay their taxes but have the balls to dictate to the people? Yeah, a fine upstanding group they are. Pathetic. :mad:

Devil505 wrote:"There are none so blind as .....those who will not see."


Right back at ya Devil. ;)
jpete
 
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Re: Can the Govt really fix the economy?

PostBy: coalmeister On: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:06 pm

Devil505 wrote:
mr1precision wrote:I would answer this question with a question. What does the government do better than the private sector? Besides waste money and get fatter and dumber. I feel like the government is out on a bender and we the taxpayers are suffering with the hangover. :mad:


Except your little argument is wrong in that it's pretty well accepted that it was the lack of government oversight that got us into this crisis in the first place. (Lack of oversight let your beloved "Private Sector" get greedy & cheat when there were no umpires on the field of play, because they had been banned from the game).


Lets not forget Barney (I've got marbles in my mouth) & Chris who forced lenders to lend to people that were no where near qualified as a quasi affirmative action program. That was GOVERNMENT REGULATION.
coalmeister
 
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