Honest Boiler Questions

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Dann757
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Post by Dann757 » Tue. Mar. 31, 2009 8:42 pm

I take care of a couple big mansions for a nice successful family. Earlier this year their regular heating company told them the one house, which has three Aprilaire humidifiers ,needed to have those humidifiers replaced to the tune of $700 apiece. I took them apart, cleaned the scale off the inlet valves and impellers, and had them fixed in a couple hours. I can get the same or better complete humidifier for around $250.00.
Now the same heating company just replaced "corroded", 1" copper pipe in the main home, which is a 13,000 sq./ft. home. The house is ten years old and I can't see how the heating pipe could have needed replacement. There are three Weil-McClain boilers in the basement, I think six or more zones. The taco circulators send hot water up to 2 air handlers in the attic, and one in the basement. So there are a lot of 1" copper hot water heating pipes in the house.
Now the company wants to charge the lady $4500.00 to flush and replace the "glycol". In a letter to the owner, the heating company VP suggested this is necessary. He said his technicians tested the pH and freezing point of the boiler water. He said the pH of the boiler water was 8.6, and it is recommended that it be at 7-8.5. He said the freezing point of the boiler water is now at around 18*f. I got a soil pH tester and tested the boiler water, but I think the scale didn't go alkaline enough, it showed at least pH 7.5. Maybe I can get a boiler water test kit at a plumbing supply place. I also took a test of the freezing point of the water with a coolant tester and it is at 18*f so at least they were honest about that part.
In the letter, the VP said a similar home took 90 gallons of "glycol" to replace the old coolant. Seems like a lot of coolant in the system. He sees these people are rich, and it makes me mad that this deception is going on.
I looked at the boiler water and it is relatively clear. I don't see why I can't drain the boilers in the summer, and add enough new anti-freeze to bring the freezing point down to a below zero level. I've heard when you replace the water in some systems, it actually adds more oxygen and might not be necessary.
The only reason for glycol in the system as far as I know, is to make sure the pipes in the attic are protected. I don't see why this is a $4500.00 job.
I know there are a lot of experienced plumbers and heating guys here; I'm looking for opinions and advice, so I can help my employers avoid being scammed. I feel this company is using unethical and predatory service techniques, and outrageous prices. I can get Trion Air Bear filters for about 20% of what this guy is charging too.
thanks, Dan

 
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009to090
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Post by 009to090 » Tue. Mar. 31, 2009 9:13 pm

Dan, the first thing I would do is get another company in there to give the system a "Once-over" check, and have them list anything they think needs work. Sounds like you really need a second opinion. Don't tell then what the first company is recommending. Let them find their own 'issues'.
If they charge you $200 for the walkthru, then tell you nothing is wrong, you may have just saved $4300.
As far as the AprilAir humidifiers go, I have the same "Hard-water" build ups on mine, and I do exactly what you did, get in there, use some vinegar, and scrape away.

 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Tue. Mar. 31, 2009 9:23 pm

Dann757 wrote:Now the company wants to charge the lady $4500.00 to flush and replace the "glycol".
I would set up a sting with the Department of Consumer Protection, unless this home is powered by a huge diesel locomotive engine, I can only assume the man is a thief.

 
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Post by Scottscoaled » Tue. Mar. 31, 2009 9:37 pm

Hey Dan, looks like you are doing a good job of earning your pay. You are right to be concerned. There are a couple things you should factor in though. To start, it wouldn't be all that out of line to expect that there is 90 or so gallons of glycol needed. Besides having to fill up 3 boilers at 10? gallons apiece, maybe more, maybe less, the is the 1" line running all over the place. There is considerable volumn in bigger pipe. It adds up fast. I know when I went to estimate mine, the 300' of pex from my boiler came to around 40 gallons of fluid. With a 13,000 square foot house that 1" has to add up pretty fast. So if the 90 gallons is close, still, it costs the contractor around $15 a gallon. Cost. Mark up 50%, which is low someplaces and high others, and there is around $2200 or so in glycol charge. There's a day to go get it or shipping charge. transport to job site. Pumping equipment. Drain the system. measure the amount that comes out. mix glycol. Pump back in, then bleeding the entire system. In schools it seems to take them a couple days. Looking at it like that it would seem that that's not such a bad quote. The contractor Has to pay all the liability insurances, workman"s comp, social security, Unemployment insurrances, licensing fees. And usually guarantees their work.
On the other hand. How much delution is required for below freezing? The 90 gallons, is that the amount that has to be added to the existing glycol?????? Can't they reuse the stuff they are draining out? How much would it cost to ensure there was adequate flow to problem areas. And why did the pipe corrode? Was there galvanic action that was caused by faulty installation. Why would the air handlers be in the attic if they are going to freeze up. wouldn't it be more cost effective to heat trace the lines. If your heat lines are protected to 18 degrees, you would tend to think that that would be enough :) The other water lines would become a problem before that. Get an emergency back up generator. Just a little more to think about. Most of my info is from job related experiences. It may not be totally correct. But it should be pretty close. Good luck :) Scott


 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Mar. 31, 2009 10:54 pm

You are obviously a very handy guy. I think your clients are lucky to have someone as caring and honest as you.

Because certain things come easily to you don't make the mistake of thinking others are similarly talented. Don't sell yourself short. What you have is worth a good deal. The price you see others charge might be worth it, if they do a superb job. It might be telling you, you are not charging enough. Not that you should rip people off but just to realize the true costs of running your own business. Add in health care costs and retirement, plus costs of new tools and truck and I bet you should be charging double. Don't forget the time spent in planning, and billing, and accounting, and trips to the supply house.

This has been hard for me to write since it could easily be taken in a way I don't wish it to. I am 77 years old and feel I can give advice to a younger man, especially since it really reflects my own mistakes, having beliefs and attitudes similar to yours.

A super salesman I know said "unless you can see tears in their eyes you haven't charged enough".

When you add water to a boiler you will add oxygen, but it will soon be dissipated once that water is heated.

Best Wishes,

Richard

 
Dann757
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Post by Dann757 » Tue. Mar. 31, 2009 11:44 pm

Thanks! They have a whompin backup generator. And I consider you guys my buddies so I don't take that advice wrong. Thank you.
I did consider the volume in the whole system so 90 gallons might not be way off. I'll see if I can get some pics. The air handlers in the attic must have been designed to be put there. It's an unheated attic, so I guess that's why the lines are freeze protected. If it was my place, I would feel more comfortable if it was protected a little lower, like 15 below.
How long should a system go without the entire volume of water/glycol being changed? You know some people go the entire life of their car and never change the coolant. I try to change mine every couple years. I have seen boiler water really black and smelly, the stuff I saw earlier today didn't look bad at all. It was clear, no colorant. I wonder if there's additives they typically use to adjust the pH of the boiler water. I guess they like to keep it alkaline rather than acidic. Or neutral. My brother's old well water was so acidic I would be going over to fix pinhole leaks in the copper all the time.
I'll be meeting the VP of this small company there tomorrow; he says he'll show me where the pipes were replaced. The company has the original owner's name, but it was sold to this guy.
Thanks again for the perspective!

 
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Post by Poconoeagle » Wed. Apr. 01, 2009 1:14 am

In any pet store you can buy a ph test kit. the master kit does the lower scale as well as a high one which will cover your bases. Years ago I built a 6500 sq ft house with 5 zones and did extreme research regarding the glycol. to the extent of talking to the design engineers at dow chem.

after all is said and done the concensus was forget the antifreese.... the 10 kw genset covers the base . just my 2 cents

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Wed. Apr. 01, 2009 9:00 am

Adding anti freeze actually lowers the heat carrying capacity of plain water. Some is good, too much is bad.
My tractor will overheat with glycol in the system during a hot day in the summer because it is a non water pump model and was designed to run on plain water.
The car guys use a product to improve the heat transfer of plain water 'water wetter'.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp


 
Dann757
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Post by Dann757 » Wed. Apr. 01, 2009 9:59 am

Thanks for all the advice. Yeah, I heard water is the best heat transfer medium. Antifreeze is just that, to lower the freezing point. I met with the guy this morning and he was cordial and I was cordial, he showed me where the pipes were replaced. Whether or not they needed to be replaced is a moot point. But I get brownie points with the homeowners. Now this heating company will be aware that all their suggestions and repairs will be scrutinized. They were Burnham boilers, not Weil-McClain, my mistake.

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Burnhams

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Big house, lots of pipes

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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Apr. 01, 2009 12:42 pm

I would like to know why the anti-freeze is even being talked about, is no one home and it is unheated?

 
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Post by coalkirk » Wed. Apr. 01, 2009 5:47 pm

coaledsweat wrote:I would like to know why the anti-freeze is even being talked about, is no one home and it is unheated?
Two of the air handlers are in the attic, unconditioned space.

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