Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: CoalBin On: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:27 am

Steve.N wrote:I did a little poking around and according to Wikipedia the idea goes back to the turn of the 19th century. There is an interesting map showing the demarcation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... s#New_York


That's an interesting article - follow one of it's links - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_secession

which puts forth the financial reasons behind the desire for secession:

"In January 2008 City Council member Vallone again offered a bill for the secession of New York City from New York state. After Mayor Michael Bloomberg testified to New York state legislators that New York City gives the state $11 billion more than it gets back, Vallone stated: "If not secession, somebody please tell me what other options we have if the state is going to continue to take billions from us and give us back pennies. Should we raise taxes some more? Should we cut services some more? Or should we consider seriously going out on our own?" The New York City council planned to hold a meeting on the topic.[1]"

"Long Island Secession
Meanwhile, on Long Island, there have been calls for Nassau and Suffolk Counties to separate from New York State as well. Suffolk County comptroller and former state assemblyman Joseph Sawicki has called for a separation of Long Island from the rest of the state, saying that the region, one of the wealthiest in the state, receives only $5,200,000,000 in state payments and pays $8,100,000,000 in taxes to the state.[2]. Long Island even has a movement pushing for secession of the entire geographic island (Kings, Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk counties) from the United States. [3]"

While I like the idea of a unified state - financially, I'd be better off without the rest of the state. Pay Pay Pay - That pretty much sums it up for me here on LI.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Steve.N On: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:47 pm

I have never understood why there are all of the extra employment taxes if you work in NYC. To the best of my knowdge no other city has these extra taxes.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: CoalBin On: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:49 am

Check out http://taxfoundation.org/article/city-income-taxes "The city income tax, once considered a novelty, now provides substantial revenue in more than 170 municipalities, including 21 cities with population of at least 100,000 individuals." ( 18 million people )

In NYC I think the basic rational is that tons of money is being made there using the infrastructure and environment provided by the city. Most workers don't live(pay property tax) & spend their income in the city - so the city has to grab it somehow. --- because they just can....
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Cyber36 On: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:54 pm

Let'em do whatever they want. As soon as the oppurtunity presents itself, I'm outta this friggin toliet.............
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: pvolcko On: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:03 pm

No need for a new state or flag, just let NJ annex NYC. The two are far more connected/sympatico culturally, fiscally, and politically than downstate and upstate anyway. Might as well make it official.

While the upstate economy might suffer the temporary loss of government spending dollars, there would be far less impediment to tax reform and business regulatory reforms, less coupling of NY politics to DC politics, and a much less concentrated (geographically) center of political power within the state. Can still supply water, power, etc. to NYC, but it would be handled as services for cost instead of bogging both upstate and downstate down financially by having the huge tax regime in place that effectively subsidizes all this resource transfer. By having all this unmasked from the cloak of the NY State tax regime it creates a lot more business to business and state to state cash flow, and lets the two parts of the state compete rationally for resources, business, and cash instead of it being managed from central political command in Albany and dominated by NYC political and philosophical sensibilities. Similarly upstate would be buying services of NYC for international shipping and commerce, financial services and general high level commerce, etc.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:34 pm

This scenario is repeated in many states. The population is in the cities but the cities are out of touch with the vast majority of landowners in the country. The water problems in California, particulary San Diego, are coming to a head fast. We cannot just keep breaking up into smaller states but something needs to change so that country people have an equal say in matters that directly affect them. Maybe a way to weight votes by landmass to compensate for lack of population. Nice thought but it will never happen. And the cities will continue to make decisions that benefit them and to hell with the ignorant few in the country. Why would Albany/Schenectady, Syracuse, Buffalo, and Rochester be any better at doing the right thing for country people? Or do even people in New York think NYC is more European them American?

Kevin
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:56 pm

If I remember correctly, it wasn't too long ago that NYC was a huge hole that the rest of the state was pouring money into. They were talking bankrupcy and bailouts. Anyway, I'm sure that if they become their own little state, it would allow us upstaters to charge huge amounts of moneys for things that they take for granted. How about prisoners. They got any good high security prisons down dere? Jeese. wouldn't that be sort of neat!!!! Let them find housing for all their criminals instead of shipping them all up by us. :roll: Scott
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:43 am

KLook wrote:This scenario is repeated in many states. Kevin


I know that we have many of the same issues here in VA. Our northern suburbs are overwhelmingly blue and the rest of the state is solid red despite having gone blue in the last election (51/49.) The northern suburbs pay the majority of taxes but don’t receive a majority of services. This truth is reflected in the school funding and roads among other things. Truth is that the southern part of the state could not maintain the standard of living to which they have become accustom to and that’s why they will never let the northern suburbs break off. Lisa
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Cyber36 On: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:46 pm

stokerscot wrote:If I remember correctly, it wasn't too long ago that NYC was a huge hole that the rest of the state was pouring money into. They were talking bankrupcy and bailouts. Anyway, I'm sure that if they become their own little state, it would allow us upstaters to charge huge amounts of moneys for things that they take for granted. How about prisoners. They got any good high security prisons down dere? Jeese. wouldn't that be sort of neat!!!! Let them find housing for all their criminals instead of shipping them all up by us. :roll: Scott

Didn't they make a movie about this very topic back in the late 80's?? They built a H-U-G-E wall around Manhattan Island & made it THE federal prison. As it so happens, the President's helicopter goes down behind the walls & they "hired" a convict to go get him out..............
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:54 pm

Guy's name was Snake? :) Scott
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:52 pm

stokerscot wrote:Guy's name was Snake? :) Scott


Snake Plisken "Call me 'Snake'"



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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:10 pm

Funny, upstaters think I live downstate, downstaters upstate. But I'm the 1st county north of the line in the wiki link map.

This problem is prevalent not only within the states but at the federal level. http://taxfoundation.org/article/federa ... state-2005 Of the 17 states which pay more to the feds than they get back, exactly 2 are red states.

Anybody see the irony in that? :gee:

Bottom line: if you're paying the band, you get to call the tune. And I think it's high time to get these country folk off the welfare rolls, don't y'all? :D
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:37 am

stockingfull wrote:Bottom line: if you're paying the band, you get to call the tune. And I think it's high time to get these country folk off the welfare rolls, don't y'all? :D


Since you think the person paying the band gets to call the tune....

Let's allow the 20% of America that pays 80% of the income taxes make all the spending rules.

Whaddyathink of that idea?
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:25 am

And if the feds didnt tell us that we have to give out welfare and left it up to the people in the communities who know who needs help, we would not create a whole class of "welfare recipients" that are just lazy and play the system. Not to mention the hugh cost of all the gov. workers that are only motivated to add more people to the welfare rolls to justify their expanding budgets.

Kevin
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:28 am

That was kind of off topic. I have heard that Portland is once again saying that they would be better off without the rest of us. Oh please, please, don't throw us in that briar patch!

Kevin
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
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