Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:45 am

I saw a report where there were three smaller cities that wanted to leave the county that they & Detroit or Millwakie(can`t remember which) are in for much the same reasons, paying for the services that all most all go to the big city & getting little if any service for their tax dollar.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:51 pm

Pretty funny, ain't it?

When people think others are living off them, they don't like it..., until they find out they're actually living off others! :lol:
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:14 pm

Well I'm glad you understand that the people (through the government) shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them, namely the wealthy.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:38 pm

Actually, mike, the gov't runs on votes. And those votes are in the populated areas. Face it, the bicameral system is the only thing that saves you country folk from getting the pittance your benighted political philosophy would otherwise yield.

So it's good that you understand that you should be thankful, and stop whining.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Berlin On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:47 pm

I'll take my "pittance" AND my freedom
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:24 pm

Berlin wrote:I'll take my "pittance" AND my freedom

Not if you found out how little that was, you wouldn't. That is, unless you're crazy enough to turn down a handout.

And, if you were, that would make you different than nearly every red state and nearly every red area in the blue states.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Berlin On: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:12 am

don't tell me what i wouldn't do, make assumptions about what i know and then call me crazy.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:19 am

OK, write your governor, congressman and senators and let them know you don't want any more tax benefits than you personally pay for, you know, after defense, the space program and all the rest of the non-local stuff. Oh, be sure to send a copy to the editor of the local paper.

Then only your neighbors will think you're nuts.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: Berlin On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:48 am

stop trying to "trap" me into saying something that you can jump on as not making much sense; it's annoying. this is a discussion of different geographical areas having different tax burdens and different tax benefits, don't make it personal; it's foolish to do so and accomplishes nothing of any value for the discussion whatsoever.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: BobDavis On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:36 am

I was in Scotland last year talking to a pensioner about the 2010 vote on the change of their political relationship with England.
Now, when I travel there are two almost inviolate rules about discussing politics while in a foreign country.
1: Be nice to all parties back in the US and be nice to the person asking about your politics.
2: Never, never talk bad about your elected officials (Even though you hate their guts and you think the other party was crazy for electing them.) (BO pay attention to this one.)
3: You probably will never know enough about the politics of the host country to give any intelligent opinion. See rule number 1.

I asked about the upcoming referendum in 2010 and where she stood as a Scottish nationalist. She didn't care for English cultural influence in Scotland but that she thought it would be hugely expensive to just break away and become a commonwealth nation but thought there could be some middle ground. Something like protecting the French speaking nationalist in Quebec but having some political independence. Thinking of rule number 1 I didn't say: "You are a conquered nation that fought the English for centuries for your independence!"
"Your culture is doomed to fade away because you are living next to a cultural bulldozer." I did say: "You need more than guarantees in English law about sovereignty to keep your culture separate. You are a minority and they are the majority. Laws change."

I guess that is how I feel about NYC and downstate. The culture and politics are so different that it is almost two different states. We have two houses both elected on the basis of population so we have the tyranny of the majority. We need to have the Senate elected by county not by population. Two senators per county would give the less populous counties just a much clout as any county in NY City area. Suddenly St Lawrence and Stuben counties have clout in the senate.


BD
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:40 am

Funny, we didn't hear much about the "tyranny of the majority" during the Bush Administration. Back then, it was, "we won, you lost." :roll:

In fact, the majority's power has been structurally reduced in nearly every branch of gov't for the express purpose of providing levels of infrastructure and public services for electoral minorities that could never be justified if the "free market" actually ran its natural course there.

So, in fact, the bicameral system, which exists at the federal level and which model Bob suggests at the state level, is a disguise for the "socialist" subsidies for rural areas that have been in place since at least FDR's time, when rural electrification brought the power out there so all you guys who think you're "independent" from the cities could blog about that now.

How 'bout that for irony? Ingrates using the resources the "socialists" provided them to complain about "socialism." :nana:
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: BobDavis On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03 pm

stockingfull wrote:Funny, we didn't hear much about the "tyranny of the majority" during the Bush Administration. Back then, it was, "we won, you lost." :roll:

In fact, the majority's power has been structurally reduced in nearly every branch of gov't for the express purpose of providing levels of infrastructure and public services for electoral minorities that could never be justified if the "free market" actually ran its natural course there.

So, in fact, the bicameral system, which exists at the federal level and which model Bob suggests at the state level, is a disguise for the "socialist" subsidies for rural areas that have been in place since at least FDR's time, when rural electrification brought the power out there so all you guys who think you're "independent" from the cities could blog about that now.

How 'bout that for irony? Ingrates using the resources the "socialists" provided them to complain about "socialism." :nana:


Wow, where to start?
I was amazed how many in the last few election cycles run around claiming of a "mandate" so that one party could attempt to push their pre election promises. A few hundred votes here and a few hundred votes there and someone else has a "mandate"

The majority's power has been expanded at the federal level since before WWI and the individual rights have been reduced as more power is invested in the executive branch by a whole host of alphabet soups agencies. From DEA to FBI the erosion of your freedoms continues - I would hardly call that expansion of minority rights.

One of the subject of rural electrification (from the 1930s?) I thought that was a make work project. To stimulate the economy? Sound familiar? How about the Niagara Falls Power project to light NYC. How about the New York Thruway floating a bond to buy our LIL's nuclear power plant on Long Island. So the pork runs both ways does it not? So much for the free market working when the "city" wants something.

So "in fact" the bicameral system has existed since 1787 somewhat before Karl Marx.
"Independent from cities" is a live style choice not a location - you choose your hell and I will choose mine.

BD
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:40 pm

Don't take it so personally; I live in a rural county too. In fact, north of the wiki demarcation line in NY.

But the point is to keep a healthy perspective on the "community" which all levels of gov't really are. No matter where you live, one day it may be taxes flowing away, the next day flowing toward you.

The point is it's a mistake -- for anybody -- always to focus on that first day and overlook the second.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: coalkirk On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:57 pm

stockingfull wrote:Don't take it so personally; I live in a rural county too. In fact, north of the wiki demarcation line in NY.


Yes we know and we're zeroing in as we speak.
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Re: Dividing NY into upstate NY and downstate NY

PostBy: BobDavis On: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:14 pm

I used to live in Maine while growing up - the "big" city, Portland - Went off to military in the early 70s - when I came back I found that someone had changed. My friends, neighbors and family were all liberal!!! Sometime while I was gone, Boston moved North and took over all of Portland! All that individual responsibility my dad had told me about was all there in my head but it had taken some banging in the military to have the light come on.
Now living in WNY and looking at the two LIBERAL senators for Maine I hang my head and wonder what those folks in upstate are thinking. But they have the same problem NY has. Very liberal downstate city folk and more conservative upstate farmers and small business people. So now that I'm thinking about a place to retire I ponder the political landscape and know that no matter where I go there will always be someone to argue with. I think I'll stay right here and fight and not run to a red state. Where would be the fun in that!!!!

So I now vow not the take it personally!

BD

later edit.

You listening Devil? :D
Last edited by BobDavis on Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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