Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:12 am

stockingfull wrote:Couldn't disagree more. WWII required great bravery and heroism, to be sure. But it was a political no-brainer once Pearl Harbor happened. (And there's no analogy to 9/11 because Pearl Harbor was a military attack by a state, not a guerilla attack by some zealots who can't be found ... , er, who we weren't willing to kill when they were found.)

But, to the point, there hasn't been so simple a political choice since then (with the possible exception of the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo). So the John Wayne-esque political-think of WWII is not only literally as old as Mr. Estes, it just doesn't cut it anymore.

We make a terrible error when we think every conflict comes down to the simple choices and heroism of WWII. And we've done that over and over since Mr. Estes wore his uniform. When will we all learn that the world ain't so simple anymore? If the geezers can't comprehend that, they need to find the wisdom to listen more and talk less.

The unfortunate truth is that Afghanistan is a no-win morass. We may long for the simplicity of the old-fashioned answers, but they just aren't there. We're in a country which didn't invade us, wasn't invaded by some other country from which we can heroically liberate it, we're uninvited, and we'll have 100,000 troops looking for about 100 Al Quaeda killers, and killing a bunch of Afghani civilians in the process.

Old Mr. Estes never lived through any of that, so his "guidance" just isn't helpful. And he only underscores that problem by his attempt to be condescending about it.


Germany didn't invade the US. Actually, Japan didn't invade the US either, though it did attack a military target in a remote territory of the US. Highly trained, well-funded and regionally influential terrorists did in fact attack a US civilian target with intent to inflict as much damage to civilians and property as possible.

The world wasn't simple in 1945. People weren't substantially different in 1945. "Geezers", as you so eloquently stereotype the most senior of citizens, have the same collective judgement as their modern counterparts. "Geezer" wisdom is lost only on fools.

Applying such wisdom would would lead the prudent to recognize that nation-states and tribes have only borders as their difference. Before the powerful western nations imposed borders on the middle east in the first half of the 20th century, tribal values ruled the middle east. The western borders are largely ignored by Islamic sects and Arab tribes. Nothing has changed. Tribal values will remain after governments have come and gone in the middle east.

The Wahhabists, which are at the root of al Qaeda and Taliban values, are a formidable tribe and have popular influence and empathy reaching about 40% of Muslim populations. Hitler's henchmen, the nazis and brown shirts were zealots too. They also were taken lightly in the beginning.

An LATimes report in 2001 indicated that Wm Clinton missed the chance to retrieve bin Laden from Sudan in the 1990's. Apparently he took it too lightly or was incompetent. Rumsfeld today says the commanders never requested additional troops in Afghanistan. Obama ramps up the troop levels by 30,000 to chase the mere 100 Al qaeda killers you say are the problem. Is Obama that stupid? Or are you being casually inaccurate in your characterization of the problem?

Master Chief Estes has it right.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:23 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
Germany didn't invade the US. Actually, Japan didn't invade the US either, though it did attack a military target in a remote territory of the US. Highly trained, well-funded and regionally influential terrorists did in fact attack a US civilian target with intent to inflict as much damage to civilians and property as possible.


Not to nit pick but we declared war on Germany because Germany had already declared war on us.



Roosevelt sent Congress the following request:

December 11, 1941
The President's Message

To the Congress of the United States:

On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. The long-known and the long-expected has thus taken place. The forces endeavoring to enslave the entire world now are moving toward this hemisphere. Never before has there been a greater challenge to life, liberty and civilization. Delay invites great danger. Rapid and united effort by all of the peoples of the world who are determined to remain free will insure a world victory of the forces of justice and of righteousness over the forces of savagery and of barbarism. Italy also has declared war against the United States.

I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy.

Franklin D. Roosevelt





Congress passed this resolution:


The War Resolution

Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.

Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:

Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States



It was totally a no brainer.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:37 am

mikeandgerry wrote:Germany didn't invade the US. Actually, Japan didn't invade the US either, though it did attack a military target in a remote territory of the US. Highly trained, well-funded and regionally influential terrorists did in fact attack a US civilian target with intent to inflict as much damage to civilians and property as possible.

The world wasn't simple in 1945. People weren't substantially different in 1945. "Geezers", as you so eloquently stereotype the most senior of citizens, have the same collective judgement as their modern counterparts. "Geezer" wisdom is lost only on fools.

Applying such wisdom would would lead the prudent to recognize that nation-states and tribes have only borders as their difference. Before the powerful western nations imposed borders on the middle east in the first half of the 20th century, tribal values ruled the middle east. The western borders are largely ignored by Islamic sects and Arab tribes. Nothing has changed. Tribal values will remain after governments have come and gone in the middle east.

The Wahhabists, which are at the root of al Qaeda and Taliban values, are a formidable tribe and have popular influence and empathy reaching about 40% of Muslim populations. Hitler's henchmen, the nazis and brown shirts were zealots too. They also were taken lightly in the beginning.

An LATimes report in 2001 indicated that Wm Clinton missed the chance to retrieve bin Laden from Sudan in the 1990's. Apparently he took it too lightly or was incompetent. Rumsfeld today says the commanders never requested additional troops in Afghanistan. Obama ramps up the troop levels by 30,000 to chase the mere 100 Al qaeda killers you say are the problem. Is Obama that stupid? Or are you being casually inaccurate in your characterization of the problem?

Master Chief Estes has it right.

Mike, I hope you've sent your insights on the Wahhabists to both the CIA and CentCom. But maybe you're right, which might be why President Obama has decided to send more troops over there (I mean, other than to gas-up the drones flying into Pakistan 8-) ).

It does amuse me, though, that a stickler for factual accuracy like you should find the LATimes as credible as a bipartisan Senate report on the question of who's let OBL evade "judgment day."

But equating Al Quaeda to Japan or Germany? And suggesting that 9/11 was like Pearl Harbor? Mike, you gotta take a break from whatever you're smoking. Al Quaeda's an amorphous international movement, Mike, not a nation we can declare war against. (I thought you would have been paying more attention to that while the last Administration was using it to justify not following the Geneva Convention.) And 9/11? Mike, they hijacked our civilian planes to pull that off. You think that's the same as warplanes flying off a carrier? Or firing missiles from a sub?

C'mon, man, get some coffee and step up your game. You're beginning to sound as feeble as old man Estes.
stockingfull
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:15 pm

If 9/11 is justification for going after AQ anywhere and everywhere I expect the next hit La Cosa Nostra pulls, we will invade Italy.....
jpete
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: SMITTY On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:42 pm

Yeah ..... but the mafia didn't take 2 iconic buildings down along with 3,000 American souls ... with our own jets! :shock:
SMITTY
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:58 pm

How many deaths can be attributed to LCN? A lot more than 3000. Buildings are concrete and steel, I have no attachment to them.

AQ has the same decentralized structure and our efforts to stomp them out will be as successful as our efforts against the mob.
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: SMITTY On: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:07 pm

But the mob doesn't hate you or I for where we live ....... they just want to make a buck at someones expense, not unlike the gov't . AQ is far more dangerous.
SMITTY
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:39 am

ErikLaurence wrote:It was totally a no brainer.


That is correct. It WAS a no brainer.

I see the war on terror as a no brainer. So did Congress when they authorized the president to take action.

Are you saying that radical Islamists didn't declare war on the US?
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:49 am

stockingfull wrote:Mike, I hope you've sent your insights on the Wahhabists to both the CIA and CentCom. But maybe you're right, which might be why President Obama has decided to send more troops over there (I mean, other than to gas-up the drones flying into Pakistan 8-) ).

It does amuse me, though, that a stickler for factual accuracy like you should find the LATimes as credible as a bipartisan Senate report on the question of who's let OBL evade "judgment day."

But equating Al Quaeda to Japan or Germany? And suggesting that 9/11 was like Pearl Harbor? Mike, you gotta take a break from whatever you're smoking. Al Quaeda's an amorphous international movement, Mike, not a nation we can declare war against. (I thought you would have been paying more attention to that while the last Administration was using it to justify not following the Geneva Convention.) And 9/11? Mike, they hijacked our civilian planes to pull that off. You think that's the same as warplanes flying off a carrier? Or firing missiles from a sub?

C'mon, man, get some coffee and step up your game. You're beginning to sound as feeble as old man Estes.



John, you are pathetic. Argue the facts. Don't berate me, the LA Times, or the previous administration.

The terrorists are counting on our adherence to western values in order to defeat us. If we don't have a nation to declare war against, does that mean there is no substantial ideological enemy or organization? You fail to recognize the organizational effectiveness and cohesiveness of Islam. The only thing that is feeble is your inability to think outside the box.

Like the left's political strategy against the right, al qaeda will use incrementalism and mass communication along with popular appeal, while exploiting their opponents sense of fair play. (The only difference between AQ and the left's strategy is that the left in this country substitute environmentalism for religion).

Don't you recognize your own highly effective strategy?
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:10 am

jpete wrote:How many deaths can be attributed to LCN? A lot more than 3000. Buildings are concrete and steel, I have no attachment to them.

AQ has the same decentralized structure and our efforts to stomp them out will be as successful as our efforts against the mob.


LCN is decentralized and cares only about money, nothing about ideology. AQ is coordinated and is intent on domination, they couldn't care less about money.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:27 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
jpete wrote:How many deaths can be attributed to LCN? A lot more than 3000. Buildings are concrete and steel, I have no attachment to them.

AQ has the same decentralized structure and our efforts to stomp them out will be as successful as our efforts against the mob.


LCN is decentralized and cares only about money, nothing about ideology. AQ is coordinated and is intent on domination, they couldn't care less about money.


You guys watched too many westerns or something. It's not nearly as simplistic as you'd like to make it. Whatever lets you sleep at night though.....
jpete
 
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:46 am

Mike its not a war against Islam, not all are evil just a radical segment that uses religion to hide behind. As for the money part I don`t believe that in the least, they are being financed & the leaders I would guess are socking away plenty. You can`t wage a conflict without money, even the Taliban leaders are getting paid just like we paid them to fight the Russians.
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:49 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:It was totally a no brainer.


That is correct. It WAS a no brainer.

I see the war on terror as a no brainer. So did Congress when they authorized the president to take action.


I see that we played directly into their hand.

The goal of 9/11 was not to kill American civilians. The goal of 9/11 was not to bring down the twin towers. The goal of 9/11 was not to overthrow America.

The goal of 9/11 was to provoke a huge US overreaction.

UBL wants and needs US troops in the middle east and the Indian subcontinent, the more the better for him. He was hoping for a US occupation of Afghanistan, our invasion of Iraq was success beyond his wildest imagination (the US in a second occupation and we got rid of Saddam, the most powerful secular ruler in the region for him). He needs a bogey man. There's nothing he wants more than the US to invade Iran and Pakistan. He's not scared he'll lose. He's scared we won't think he's important.

As for the "war on terror"? There is no "war on terror". You can't have a war against terror. It's like having a war on flanking maneuvers. Terror is a tactic.
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:48 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:John, you are pathetic. Argue the facts. Don't berate me, the LA Times, or the previous administration.

The terrorists are counting on our adherence to western values in order to defeat us. If we don't have a nation to declare war against, does that mean there is no substantial ideological enemy or organization? You fail to recognize the organizational effectiveness and cohesiveness of Islam. The only thing that is feeble is your inability to think outside the box.

Like the left's political strategy against the right, al qaeda will use incrementalism and mass communication along with popular appeal, while exploiting their opponents sense of fair play. (The only difference between AQ and the left's strategy is that the left in this country substitute environmentalism for religion).

Don't you recognize your own highly effective strategy?

"Berating the LATimes?" You gotta be kidding, Mike. If I cited the LATimes against a Senate committee report, you'd be on me like a cheap suit for "casual inaccuracy." Should I be surprised that you don't see it when it's applied against you?

A "War on Terror" is another name for every empire's reaction against the people who are fighting its hold on power. It's what the British would have called the American Revolution, and likely did. After the Christmas night attack of 1776, what we call Washington's Crossing (of the Delaware) might have been their "Ground Zero." (Except it was the Hessians who took the brunt of it.) Our heroic Gilbert Stuart painting is their evidence of a 3 A.M. guerrilla attack on hung-over Christmas revelers. At the time, that was a clear breach of the rules of war. The more outrageous the British response, the more popular support flowed to the Colonials, the less to the Tories. So, Mike, if you don't realize that the 9/11 attack was precisely intended to provoke an "asymmetrical response," Erik's right: it's actually your thinking which plays into the terrorists hands. The more we mindlessly occupy Muslim countries, the more we kill innocent Muslim people, the more asymmetric our response gets, the more and more enthusiastic recruits Al Quaeda will have. You see, Mike, you're the one thinking inside the box.

Besides, there are some very practical problems your Dick-Cheney-style "War on Terror" raises. Like where are the "terrorist" leaders? Indeed, WHO are they? In 7 1/2 years, our last President either chose not to find them (see the bipartisan Senate report), or failed miserably at it. Apart from the loss of our credibility that has created, with all the drones flying around, do you really think those failures were because of "fair play?" And where do you think you'll be able to plant the flag of victory when your "War" is over? Who's going to "surrender?" And, if you can name somebody who would, you really think that'll end it all?

Mike, the ONLY thing which has ever differentiated us from the (doomed) empires of the past is our adherence to the principles we stand for, including our respect for the democratic process and our ethical conduct of war. And the only places we've ever gone far wrong are those where we've forgotten those things in the name of expediency. Like Iran, Central America, Vietnam. Except in attacking Iraq in the first place (to avenge the attempt on his old man), even George Bush understood that for the most part. For sure, Iraq is a big "except," but he didn't whip out the nukes after 9/11, and he deserves some credit for that.

But back to your box, Mike. Until you understand and accept that oppression, whether by oppressive means or the use of oppressive force, or both, won't get us where we want to go, you're stuck in it. The only way we'll ever defeat Al Quaeda is by giving the people who live there a reason to think they'll get a better deal from us than they will from the tribal leaders under whose threats they've lived their entire lives.

We have two missions: to get the leadership of AQ, and to stop the movement from growing, world-wide. The only way to accomplish the second is to be much smarter about addressing the first. AQ is not a mainstream religious movement but, if you treat it like one, you'll get your wish, and we'll ultimately lose. That applies to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan ... and Ft Hood. Thankfully, most of the people calling the real shots recognize that.
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Re: Obama bows to Saudi King, WH DEnies it....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:59 pm

samhill wrote:Mike its not a war against Islam, not all are evil just a radical segment that uses religion to hide behind. As for the money part I don`t believe that in the least, they are being financed & the leaders I would guess are socking away plenty. You can`t wage a conflict without money, even the Taliban leaders are getting paid just like we paid them to fight the Russians.



LCN is into financial self-aggrandisement. AQ is not. That was my point.
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