Can It Happen Here?

coaledsweat · By: **coaledsweat** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:32 am

Very interesting.

http://jim.com/hayek.htm

jpete · By: **jpete** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:40 am

Can it? I'm fairly convinced it IS happening. And I'm impressed that you are reading Hayek too.

stockingfull · By: **stockingfull** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:32 am

If all the "Federalists" and freepers hadn't wadded it all up so badly, the argument might have some weight.

But, right now, it's going nowhere because the premise -- however laudable -- has been blown completely to hell by human greed.

coaledsweat · By: **coaledsweat** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:34 am

stockingfull wrote:freepers

What is a freeper?

jpete wrote:Can it? I'm fairly convinced it IS happening. And I'm impressed that you are reading Hayek too.

I have my eye on Selma too! :woot:

stockingfull · By: **stockingfull** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:38 am

coaledsweat wrote:
stockingfull wrote:freepers

What is a freeper?

http://www.freerepublic.com/home.htm

mikeandgerry · By: **mikeandgerry** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:52 am

stockingfull wrote:If all the "Federalists" and freepers hadn't wadded it all up so badly, the argument might have some weight.

But, right now, it's going nowhere because the premise -- however laudable -- has been blown completely to hell by human greed.

Wadded it up? There is nothing to "wad" in a free republic.

We should all aspire to be a "freeper". A free republic is why this nation was founded.

I cannot believe how blatant and strident you reds have gotten! You openly hate this nation. Then you complain when you are called anti-American.

stockingfull · By: **stockingfull** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:51 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
stockingfull wrote:If all the "Federalists" and freepers hadn't wadded it all up so badly, the argument might have some weight.

But, right now, it's going nowhere because the premise -- however laudable -- has been blown completely to hell by human greed.

Wadded it up? There is nothing to "wad" in a free republic.

We should all aspire to be a "freeper". A free republic is why this nation was founded.

I cannot believe how blatant and strident you reds have gotten! You openly hate this nation. Then you complain when you are called anti-American.

Naw, mike, we don't hate America; we're just trying to save it from the un-Godly avarice which has been masquerading as the "free market."

Even that great Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, was a "Trust-Buster" in his time. It's an entirely patriotic and American thing to do because, without it, capitalism ends completely.

So, like the blind squirrel, you've stumbled upon the truth: eventually, there's nothing left to "wad" in the free republic you wish for.

tvb · By: **tvb** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:58 pm

Jon, you need to cut them a break until they learn the difference between socialism (of which the US has had many socialist aspects for years as a mixed economy) and communism and fascism (but that would require them to be self-reflective and we know that isn't going to happen).

stockingfull · By: **stockingfull** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:16 pm

The funny thing is that it's not really a line but a circle.

Hitler's "Nazi" party literally was the "Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei", originally known as the NSDAP, which stands for "national socialist German workers' party." Sounds pretty far left, huh? Yet Hitler hated, reviled and whipped up a frenzy against the "Communists," not unlike the wingnuts today. (So much so, in fact, that he made the fatal strategic mistake of turning east in late 1941.)

But philosophically, was Hitler's hatred of the reds actually borne of the envy of competitors for the same constituents? Nobody ever called Hitler a socialist, yet his revolution imposed an extremely regimented and restricted form of life, in which, most notably, freedoms of speech and assembly were essentially extinguished, and where people were assigned to education, work and even lifestyles designed by and for the promotion of the party. I've got pictures from my wife's family.

So the question becomes: which form of "social order" do you want? Door #1? Or door #2? On this particular circle, they're actually right next door.

I prefer to stay on the opposite side of that circle, where the objective is to balance freedom and regulation.

jpete · By: **jpete** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:38 pm

tvb wrote:Jon, you need to cut them a break until they learn the difference between socialism (of which the US has had many socialist aspects for years as a mixed economy) and communism and fascism (but that would require them to be self-reflective and we know that isn't going to happen).

You're absolutely right. We haven't had a truly free market in about 200 years and we've been partially socialist since at least FDR's New Deal. In that time we've gotten a less educated populace, $11.5+ trillion dollar defecit and the value of that dollar is about 13 cents compared to 1913 dollars. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. And now you want to turn all that up to 11 and expect me to believe that it's a panacea. The system is a failure and more of it is not the solution.

mikeandgerry · By: **mikeandgerry** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:36 pm

stockingfull wrote:Naw, mike, we don't hate America; we're just trying to save it from the un-Godly avarice which has been masquerading as the "free market."

Even that great Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, was a "Trust-Buster" in his time. It's an entirely patriotic and American thing to do because, without it, capitalism ends completely.

So, like the blind squirrel, you've stumbled upon the truth: eventually, there's nothing left to "wad" in the free republic you wish for.

Wow, you have it totally backward: like a drunk who "needs" another drink to "cure" what ails him, you don't understand that the "cure" is the problem.

You see, Jon, without government meddling, those trusts would never have gained footing and needed busting. The trusts that need busting today are the UAW, Freddy and Fanny, and the Federal Reserve. Like many trusts, they got their start from the government.

jpete · By: **jpete** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:03 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Naw, mike, we don't hate America; we're just trying to save it from the un-Godly avarice which has been masquerading as the "free market."

Even that great Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, was a "Trust-Buster" in his time. It's an entirely patriotic and American thing to do because, without it, capitalism ends completely.

So, like the blind squirrel, you've stumbled upon the truth: eventually, there's nothing left to "wad" in the free republic you wish for.

Wow, you have it totally backward: like a drunk who "needs" another drink to "cure" what ails him, you don't understand that the "cure" is the problem.

You see, Jon, without government meddling, those trusts would never have gained footing and needed busting. The trusts that need busting today are the UAW, Freddy and Fanny, and the Federal Reserve. Like many trusts, they got their start from the government.

Right!

I went to "Nelson W. Aldrich" junior high school. Read up on THAT bastard. Absolute friggin criminal. Nothing got done in the US unless Aldrich got paid first.

Because of his impact on national politics and central position on the pivotal Senate Finance Committee, he was referred to by the press and public alike as the "General Manager of the Nation", dominating all tariff and monetary policies in the first decade of the 20th century. In a career that spanned three decades, Aldrich helped to create an extensive system of tariffs that protected American factories and farms from foreign competition. He rebuilt the American financial system along Progressive lines through the institution of the federal income tax amendment and the Federal Reserve System. He did so in the belief that it would lead to greater efficiency. Aldrich became wealthy with investments in street railroads, sugar, rubber and banking. His son Richard Steere Aldrich became a U.S. Representative, and his daughter, Abby, married John D. Rockefeller, Jr., the only son of John D. Rockefeller. Her son, Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, served as Vice President of the United States under Gerald Ford.

mikeandgerry · By: **mikeandgerry** On: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:24 pm

jpete wrote:Right!

I went to "Nelson W. Aldrich" junior high school. Read up on THAT bastard. Absolute friggin criminal. Nothing got done in the US unless Aldrich got paid first.

Because of his impact on national politics and central position on the pivotal Senate Finance Committee, he was referred to by the press and public alike as the "General Manager of the Nation", dominating all tariff and monetary policies in the first decade of the 20th century. In a career that spanned three decades, Aldrich helped to create an extensive system of tariffs that protected American factories and farms from foreign competition. He rebuilt the American financial system along Progressive lines through the institution of the federal income tax amendment and the Federal Reserve System. He did so in the belief that it would lead to greater efficiency. Aldrich became wealthy with investments in street railroads, sugar, rubber and banking. His son Richard Steere Aldrich became a U.S. Representative, and his daughter, Abby, married John D. Rockefeller, Jr., the only son of John D. Rockefeller. Her son, Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, served as Vice President of the United States under Gerald Ford.

Rocky...I hadn't heard his name in quite some time. Nelson Rockefeller was an interesting governor for NY. He was a Republican but a left leaning one. He helped get funding to build up what was then Harpur College, became SUNY Binghamton and is now Binghamton University. When he went to campus in the early seventies to give a speech and was booed and heckled by the students for some reason I can't remember (I was like 12 or thirteen years old). What I do remember was his response...he flipped them off from the podium! It was on the front page of every newspaper in the free world. I liked Rocky for that.

But this Nelson Aldrich....dang. That's the kind of guy I hate the most. Too many politicians are like that. Obama is one. Schumer is another, D'Amato was another, Barney Frank yet another. Of all the problems of our nation It sounds like Aldrich was responsible for most. I cannot understand how the income tax amendment even got through the states. I cannot believe that the federal reserve escaped government control internally. Those two laws are the root of much of our current problems.

I used to think that the Fed was a good thing. No more. Fractional reserve, or no reserve, banking is a pox on the economy. It robs wealth from the people and only lines the pockets of the well heeled.

stockingfull · By: **stockingfull** On: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:26 pm

Gentlemen, for the same reason you don't take the shock absorbers off your cars, you don't take regulation off the financial system.

Happily, people who understand that have been elected -- quite fairly -- and will do the right thing, in spite of your quaint protestations.

jpete · By: **jpete** On: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:39 pm

Care to quote where I said "remove all regulation" councillor? And stuff your attitude. You don't know jack about economic theory. Care to explain how out of control spending is the cure for out of control spending? I'll await you "quaint" response......

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