June 15th - a date to watch?

Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: mike On: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:43 pm

As of now there is nothing in the cfr stating that you need underground tracking. But there was a policy written in the MINER act requiring them. There are a few systems that would work in the terrain of a anthracite mine but they are not intrinsicaly safe meaning you can't use them around explosives. Now without going into great detail the cfr was written for bitty mines not anthracite. The reason Anthracite mines have been able to stay in compliance with the cfr all these years was because the feds use to let them file for a petition for modification if a part of the cfr didn't apply to anthracite mining i.e. rock dusting. In a bitty mine you have to spread lime over the coal seam to keep fire proof. That is a non issue in anthracite mines so if a fed inspector wrote you up for not rock dusting you could file for a petition and they almost always were granted. Now with the current leadership of MSHA district 1 they refuse to grant a petition so the law stands as it's written. It's my opinion what your going to see is some chest beating from MSHA but in the end since there are no systems approved as of yet that are safe to use in close proximty to explosives, your going to end up with a extension for a few years OR you might see a court battle but I don't think your going to see anybody shut down for any great length of time over this. By the way Harmony is not Union, maybe a few miners are in the IMA (independant miners and associates) but none are in the UMW. The only mines that are represented by the UMW are Reading, Blaschaks, Jeddo, and Lehigh and none of them are 100% union. It's my opinion that in a few years most of those mines won't have any union involvment.
mike
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: Chris Murley On: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:52 pm

there ya go, i guess i should have taken the time to explain it as mike did.
Chris Murley
 

Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: mike On: Sat May 02, 2009 6:04 pm

Well for as optomistic as I was over these new tracking requirements the future is pretty grim for the Anthracite deep mining industry. I don't know what to tell you folks now but there was some hope for either a exception for small mines or for the manufactuers of the systems to admit that the systems arent safe to use around explosives (I'm not saying there not but most mine operators thought that the manufactuers wouldn't approve there use around explosives so that would have given the Anthracite operators a possable way around this) but they did so there goes pretty much our last hope. Cost estimates range from 50k to 100k per mine plus 2k or so per man employed at the mine. The thing that really and truly hurts is that the freakin things only track you to within 200 feet of your location. In 99% of the Anthracite mines your active working section is not even 200 feet so everybody knows were your going to be anyway without any kind of tracking system! As of now not even Harmony is going to put one in. I don't think anybody knows what enforcement action MSHA is going to take if you don't have a system and keep working but everybody seems to think there going to get thrown in jail if they try. The other thing is this new rule is not in MSHA's rule book but is part of the MINER act passed by congress. What buisness does congress have regulating coal mines when I highly doubt that any congressman even know the first thing about mining bitty coal let alone Anthracite. At any rate there isn't a Anthracite Deep Mine operating that could afford to install such a system.
mike
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: gaw On: Sun May 03, 2009 6:46 am

Now you’re sounding like coalberner a month ago. I know back in March they were not too optimistic over at Superior.

God Bless Amerika, R.I.P.
gaw
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun May 03, 2009 9:26 am

mike wrote:What buisness does congress have regulating coal mines when I highly doubt that any congressman even know the first thing about mining bitty coal let alone Anthracite. .


And car companies, and borders, and finance, and anything else that requires common sense.....
Dann757
 

Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: coal berner On: Sun May 03, 2009 11:24 am

PA COAL wrote:Fellow members Chris M. or Mike A. might have some current info on this but I have heard that for the time being it might not apply to the anthracite deep mines due to something with the regulations in the CFR.

Wrong
coal berner
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: coal berner On: Sun May 03, 2009 11:50 am

mike wrote:Well for as optomistic as I was over these new tracking requirements the future is pretty grim for the Anthracite deep mining industry. I don't know what to tell you folks now but there was some hope for either a exception for small mines or for the manufactuers of the systems to admit that the systems arent safe to use around explosives (I'm not saying there not but most mine operators thought that the manufactuers wouldn't approve there use around explosives so that would have given the Anthracite operators a possable way around this) but they did so there goes pretty much our last hope. Cost estimates range from 50k to 100k per mine plus 2k or so per man employed at the mine. The thing that really and truly hurts is that the freakin things only track you to within 200 feet of your location. In 99% of the Anthracite mines your active working section is not even 200 feet so everybody knows were your going to be anyway without any kind of tracking system! As of now not even Harmony is going to put one in. I don't think anybody knows what enforcement action MSHA is going to take if you don't have a system and keep working but everybody seems to think there going to get thrown in jail if they try. The other thing is this new rule is not in MSHA's rule book but is part of the MINER act passed by congress. What buisness does congress have regulating coal mines when I highly doubt that any congressman even know the first thing about mining bitty coal let alone Anthracite. At any rate there isn't a Anthracite Deep Mine operating that could afford to install such a system.

A few words I Told You So A month or so ago . As far as the system goes There are 20 different Model that are appoved
by MSHA The kicker is None of them are inerchangeable with each other so that means if every mine gets a different
model . The MSHA inspector's would need to have 20 different model with them at all times because by there own law
says they need to have one that can communicat with each mine before they can go into the mine How much money do you think they will have to spend to inforce this B.S. law. As for the rage of these system they can go up to 300 ft in a
straight line they do not work around corners so the mine will have to install antennas threw out the mines to
communicat with they system . I was told this by more then one Owner Operator. The Cost would Run 45K to 100K
depending on how many miners are in the mine 8K to 10K a piece.
coal berner
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun May 03, 2009 1:19 pm

Tie a numbered string to each miners ankle. When the powers to be want to know where a particular miner is..... "Let's see, Ralph is miner #7, follow #7 string and you'll find him. If you need to speak to him tighten the string and speak into the can".
Freddy
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: mike On: Sun May 03, 2009 5:30 pm

I knew this was coming down the pike a year ago. A year ago everybody figured it was going to be like the fan buisness. That looked grim too right up to the very bitter end when MSHA finally backed down. The thing that hurt that time was a few operators agreed to run there fans 24/7. If a few operators don't have the guts to tell MSHA to get F%^&D it makes it that much harder for those that do to fight because than MSHA says "if so and so could afford to run his fans 24/7 you could too". As of the end of 2008 there were 68 approved tracking systems with more in the approval process. The MSHA inspectors don't have to have any tracking devices on themselves so compatability with a particular mine sites system is a non issue. I was at the Stakeholders meeting MSHA had for the anthracite operators at the River Inn just outside of Pottsville a month ago. They specificly said they can not write you a citation for not having a tracking system what they could write you a citation (or worse) for is non compliance with the MINER act. As far as tying a string and can to each miner, Don't laugh, MSHA tried that allready in the form of a life line!
mike
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: Chris Murley On: Sun May 03, 2009 5:37 pm

yea we only heard half of the story before, it is not in the cfr (where msha gets their laws from) stating you need a tracking system, but it is in the MINER act which was set up by the govt. after crandall canyon to save us from ourselves. they knew they had a problem out there and did nothing to stop it. then the mine squeezed itself shut and they said.... oh now what are we going to do. then they were dumb enough to send their own guys in there while the mountain was still moving and they got squished too. but they never knew exactly the miners were but if they had a tracking system everything would have been ok....... insert sarcasm there! so, now we all need it supposedly by mid june at a cost between 60-100k per mine and 2k per miner. its not written in stone yet but the chippin' hammer is in their hands.
Chris Murley
 

Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: mike On: Sun May 03, 2009 5:39 pm

http://www.msha.gov/REGS/COMPLIAN/Guide ... acking.pdf

read line 6 on the second link for how there going to enforce the act ;)
Last edited by Richard S. on Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: <removed dead link>
mike
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: coal berner On: Sun May 03, 2009 11:17 pm

mike wrote:I knew this was coming down the pike a year ago. A year ago everybody figured it was going to be like the fan buisness. That looked grim too right up to the very bitter end when MSHA finally backed down. The thing that hurt that time was a few operators agreed to run there fans 24/7. If a few operators don't have the guts to tell MSHA to get F%^&D it makes it that much harder for those that do to fight because than MSHA says "if so and so could afford to run his fans 24/7 you could too". As of the end of 2008 there were 68 approved tracking systems with more in the approval process. The MSHA inspectors don't have to have any tracking devices on themselves so compatability with a particular mine sites system is a non issue. I was at the Stakeholders meeting MSHA had for the anthracite operators at the River Inn just outside of Pottsville a month ago. They specificly said they can not write you a citation for not having a tracking system what they could write you a citation (or worse) for is non compliance with the MINER act. As far as tying a string and can to each miner, Don't laugh, MSHA tried that allready in the form of a life line!

Mike I think they had or came up with this great idea :roll: As far Back as 05 or 06 It is Just another why to try to take
the little Guy Out Nothing More nothing Less .
coal berner
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: Chris Murley On: Mon May 04, 2009 8:11 pm

funny thing is congress came up with the MINER act not msha.
Chris Murley
 

Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: 009to090 On: Tue May 05, 2009 8:00 am

Chris Murley wrote: so, now we all need it supposedly by mid june at a cost between 60-100k per mine and 2k per miner. its not written in stone yet but the chippin' hammer is in their hands.


Chris, is the gov offering to subsidize the cost in any way? Sounds like thats a 'No', but has anyone asked? Its worth a shot. Hey, if the gov can subsidize the cost of EVERY American converting to HDTV (like THATS really important), and also give away BILLIONS to failing insurance comps ( :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ) they can certainly fork over a couple mil for mine safety equip they are mandating.
009to090
 
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Re: June 15th - a date to watch?

PostBy: Chris Murley On: Wed May 06, 2009 9:05 pm

i was just talking to our mine operator last night about that. they give grants out for all sorts of bs things, you would think they would for this. but that would be the govt. helping the small guys and you know that never happens.......
Chris Murley