CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: bhorenstein On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:54 pm

coaledsweat wrote:So we torture our own troops but can't do it to terrorists?


I would submit that the simulated torture we put our own troops through is just that.....Simulated. Even if painful, our troops know full well that it is a training exercise & that no real harm will be done to them.
That in no way is the same as the real thing, when the person being tortured has no way of knowing if he will be killed, maimed or mutilated. There is no way to replicate the real torture, which is fear!
bhorenstein
 

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: brckwlt On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:34 pm

bhorenstein wrote:
coaledsweat wrote:So we torture our own troops but can't do it to terrorists?


I would submit that the simulated torture we put our own troops through is just that.....Simulated. Even if painful, our troops know full well that it is a training exercise & that no real harm will be done to them.
That in no way is the same as the real thing, when the person being tortured has no way of knowing if he will be killed, maimed or mutilated. There is no way to replicate the real torture, which is fear!



I think the terrorist the USA "tortures" Knows damn well they wont be killed. Im sure i could be mistaken but can you so me proof of a USA hostage being killed from USA sanctioned "torture"
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: bhorenstein On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:12 pm

brckwlt wrote:Im sure i could be mistaken but can you so me proof of a USA hostage being killed from USA sanctioned "torture"


Not yet I can't but there are credible reports that prisoners died at the hands of CIA contractors operating in our name. If true, information like that always comes out, eventually. We'll all have to just be patient & wait & see.

This MAY be true:

U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq (10/24/2005)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: media@aclu.org

CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence Personnel Implicated

NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

""There is no question that U.S. interrogations have resulted in deaths,"" said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. ""High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable. America must stop putting its head in the sand and deal with the torture scandal that has rocked our military.""

https://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/ge ... 51024.html
bhorenstein
 


Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: brckwlt On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:32 pm

bhorenstein wrote:
brckwlt wrote:Im sure i could be mistaken but can you so me proof of a USA hostage being killed from USA sanctioned "torture"


Not yet I can't but there are credible reports that prisoners died at the hands of CIA contractors operating in our name. If true, information like that always comes out, eventually. We'll all have to just be patient & wait & see.

This MAY be true:

U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq (10/24/2005)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: media@aclu.org

CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence Personnel Implicated

NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

""There is no question that U.S. interrogations have resulted in deaths,"" said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. ""High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable. America must stop putting its head in the sand and deal with the torture scandal that has rocked our military.""

https://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/ge ... 51024.html


I find it hard to believe anything the American Criminal Liberties Union says. They are always the first to jump at the chance of defending a terrorist or anything the right despises.

They hate america maybe even more then Obama does. and thats saying A LOT

Not to mention the aclu was founded by a communist. That also says alot
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: bhorenstein On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:08 pm

brckwlt wrote:I find it hard to believe anything the American Criminal Liberties Union says. They are always the first to jump at the chance of defending a terrorist or anything the right despises.


I'm not a huge follower of the ACLU either but to outright dismiss their allegations, which may or may not be true is to bury our heads in the sand. Regardless of the source of these stories, I feel they warrant further, serious investigation for the terrible implications that would arise if there was any truth to them. Bottom line is, this story is to big now with to many people involved for the truth to NOT eventually emerge. I certainly HOPE these stories are not true but I have fears.
bhorenstein
 

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: brckwlt On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:17 pm

bhorenstein wrote:
brckwlt wrote:I find it hard to believe anything the American Criminal Liberties Union says. They are always the first to jump at the chance of defending a terrorist or anything the right despises.


I'm not a huge follower of the ACLU either but to outright dismiss their allegations, which may or may not be true is to bury our heads in the sand. Regardless of the source of these stories, I feel they warrant further, serious investigation for the terrible implications that would arise if there was any truth to them. Bottom line is, this story is to big now with to many people involved for the truth to NOT eventually emerge. I certainly HOPE these stories are not true but I have fears.


I think you make my point in your last statement. If the story was true that the aclu is claiming we would of herd about it by now. Dont you think the obama mania media would of run a story on it. They hate bush, tax cuts, and the american way just like the aclu. So if this story had an merit the media would of covered it with the utmost journalistic integrity.

The truth will never emerge. Remember who will be reporting the truth. The left wing media. They are extremely bias and will cover up for obama at all cost. So to say we will ever get the truth on what really happened is a big stretch. Im sure we will get a lot of lies and things that are false or made up but the truth ... not so much
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:37 pm

coaledsweat wrote:Just look what is going on, read the whole thing.

http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/obama_cia/2009/04/27/207740.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


In contrast, the CIA’s coercive interrogations were focused, approved by members of Congress, and successful. During initial interrogations, Abu Zubaydah was reluctant to give up individuals who were close to him. After he was waterboarded — which is inflicted on our own special forces during training — he gave up Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a member of Osama bin Laden’s inner circle. In turn, that led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 plot, and the uncovering of a plot to target the West Coast in a second wave of attacks


So we torture our own troops but can't do it to terrorists?


What makes it torture is not being able to stop it. Not having any control over the situation.

Take rape as torture for example. Given your definition a woman being raped again and again could not be defined as being tortured if she had ever had sex before.

What makes it torture is the lack of control.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: spc On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:46 pm

It also seems like the Obama administration has a 9/10 mentality.

For a photo op? :wtf:



http://www.ny1.com/content/news/98059/l ... w-yorkers/
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:54 pm

Ok, after reading them all, I want some answers. We have the high ground people on one side and the f--k em all /kill them on the other. We know where the kill them people will get us. Probably more security in the short term and a prolonged fight with terrorist groups around the world. However, we are already in a fight and the high ground people like to point out that mistakes were made in the past. This is easy to do as hindsight is supposed to be 20/20. I don't think it is because you still have to make judgements based on some of the info. The public never gets it all. And OBL may have lied to apply more pressure to the Saudie's. They most assuredly would not have allowed his army into their country because they are not that stupid. They knew we would leave in the end.
So, I am asking the high grounders what course of action they would take? Remember, you are in charge now, people are depending on you to protect them. We are being attacked or threatened. What do you do? Be smarter? Be nicer? It must be something not tried yet or we would still be doing it. How about it?

Kevin

Not to compare you guys to the "O" but he is learning this now as he is supposed to be smarter and nicer then his predessor.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: Jeddbird On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:24 pm

We take whatever actions are necessary to defend ourselves while remaining ourselves & NOT allowing us to become the barbarians that our enemy is. That's the concept & all specific tactics must comply with that or the terrorists have won by destroying what makes us Americans.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:28 pm

Tilt a whirl or "that depends on what the meaning of "is" is."

Kevin
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: spc On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:29 pm

What do the "high grounded people" think of the anti-terror rendition program?
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:23 pm

KLook wrote:So, I am asking the high grounders what course of action they would take? Remember, you are in charge now, people are depending on you to protect them. We are being attacked or threatened. What do you do? Be smarter? Be nicer? It must be something not tried yet or we would still be doing it. How about it?

Kevin


How about not running around the world doing our best Roman Empire impersonation? We've got troops all over the place. Some people don't like that.

You want to "protect America"? Why not bring all the troops in 130 countries HERE to actually protect America?

How much money do we spend every day to protect Germany, the Philippines, South Korea, etc, etc.?

This isn't about "terrorists". They can't defeat us. And the Vandals didn't bring down the Roman Empire either. They bankrupted themselves.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:12 pm

jpete wrote:They bankrupted themselves.


Paying off the Vandals. They got fat and lazy and couldn't stomach a fight.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:39 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
jpete wrote:They bankrupted themselves.


Paying off the Vandals. They got fat and lazy and couldn't stomach a fight.


Bzzt. Thanks for playing. Please try again.

They were counterfeiting their own currency. The dinar used to be 94% pure. By the end of the empire, it was less than 20% pure. No one trusted the dinar anymore. They were worthless.

Our money is backed by "the full faith and credit" or the US government. Last I checked, we were running out of both. Check Zimbabwe and see where that leads.
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