CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

That is more like it jpete. SO, you are what is known as an "isolationist". Is that accurate?

Kevin

George Washington was an isolationist too.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=F9SOVzMV2bc[/youtube]

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=F9SOVzMV2bc [/youtube]

jpete wrote:

coaledsweat wrote:

jpete wrote:They bankrupted themselves.

Paying off the Vandals. They got fat and lazy and couldn't stomach a fight.

Bzzt. Thanks for playing. Please try again.

They were counterfeiting their own currency.

Why? Because they were paying off the tribes. Bzzt yourself.

Who is behind this BS.

"The so-called Commission on Accountability which mysteriously appeared on the political scene a few days ago to push for show trials related to War on Terror interrogation policies is a PR hoax created by liberal philanthropist George Soros and political operatives sympathetic to the Obama administration."

"at least eight of the 19 left-leaning institutional members of the Commission on Accountability are funded by the secretive Soros."

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/04/2 ... how-trials

Sorry, the Roman government was clipping coins long before the Vandals. And let me correct myself here, I've been doing a lot of reading about money. I said dinar earlier. The currency was the denarius. I knew it wasn't right when I said it but I couldn't think of it at the time. Governments counterfeit for the same reason. The want to buy things. Buildings, roads, armies. But they have no money so they have to tax. They can't tax too much because unhappy citizens have a bad habit of overthrowing governments. So you clip the coins, mix in a base metal, and make new coins. In 54AD the denarius was 94% silver. By 218AD it was 43%. They had more than doubled the money supply. Fifty years later it was less than 1% silver. Then something called Greshams Law takes over. People hoard the "good" money and spend the bad. But this isn't the thread for this. And to answer a previous question, no, I'm not an "isolationist". I subscribe to the Founding Fathers theory "Trade and travel with ALL, entangling alliances with NONE."

KLook wrote:Ok, after reading them all, I want some answers. We have the high ground people on one side and the f--k em all /kill them on the other. ...snip ... So, I am asking the high grounders what course of action they would take? Remember, you are in charge now, people are depending on you to protect them. We are being attacked or threatened. What do you do? Be smarter? Be nicer? It must be something not tried yet or we would still be doing it. How about it?
Kevin

Long term the only solution to the root cause of the current hate against the western world would be truly energy independence. Let's face it the only reason the western nations are in the middle east is for the oil. Eliminating that need would go a long way in a re-adjustment. The economics of reducing so much western money going to the middle east would bring about their own change in attitudes. Perhaps the western material things and values wouldn't matter to them or perhaps the current generation likes what they have seen. In any event let them make the decision and not impose a "solution" on them. It didn't work in British colonial times and it's not working now.

If in charge I would end our military involvement in the middle east. Not precipitously but in a timely manner. I would greatly increase covert intelligence gathering. This will be tough, but needs to be done because it's far more cost effective than any even limited war. Let our so called western allies take up the fall out to protect their interests instead of just benefiting from our military. Let Israel protect itself.

I would support all the efforts to improve auto fuel efficiency. I would make it a condition of auto industry bail outs. I would support improvement in energy transportation. I would make federal laws preempt state and local zoning laws so electric transmission lines and oil pipe lines can get build in reasonable time and cost. I would make every federal subsidy program have an energy efficiency improvement or new energy source requirement. I would have a jobs program that concentrates the work on energy improvement and/or development. I would set new improved efficiency standards for home appliances. We do lots of stupid things now. Why do we have all these electronic gadgets with no true off switch? All those wall warts "off power" consumption really adds up. Just design it with an "true off" switch.

Get the idea, long term it's all about energy independence. Carter was right about it, he was a good engineer (trained well by the navy) but a lousy politician and some say lousy President.

Great reply Yanche. And jpete, that was a spin move worthy of the Devil. It is difficult to not get entangled when you have an interest in the politics and natural resources in other countries. When the commies or the socialist are making advances with trading partners of ours, you have to compete. We are not a stand alone country in all resources. Yes, this was more relevent in the past when there were more powerful adversaries to compete with. The world has changed. And Yanche, I don't think the Muslim's are going to go away if oil is no longer as relevent. It is taking on the Jihad status of radical blind faith. Some of them think they are supposed to rid the world of infidels and that is you and me. It is a dangerous idea not connected to oil.
I think if you tell Isreal to take care of themselves they will annihilate the middle east and that may cause a major war that we would have no choice but to get into. There are nukes in the region and that is the next great crisis. We are not so great that we can solve the problems by getting involved and not getting involved creates other problems.
I don't see any easy solutions. At least I will admit it. But I come down on the side of crushing an adversary to send a message to others. We are to concerned about the "civilians" in Iraq and Afganistan. They read this as a weakness. And we have been proving them right for generations.

Kevin

KLook wrote:Great reply Yanche. And jpete, that was a spin move worthy of the Devil. It is difficult to not get entangled when you have an interest in the politics and natural resources in other countries. When the commies or the socialist are making advances with trading partners of ours, you have to compete. We are not a stand alone country in all resources. Yes, this was more relevent in the past when there were more powerful adversaries to compete with. The world has changed. And Yanche, I don't think the Muslim's are going to go away if oil is no longer as relevent. It is taking on the Jihad status of radical blind faith. Some of them think they are supposed to rid the world of infidels and that is you and me. It is a dangerous idea not connected to oil.
I think if you tell Isreal to take care of themselves they will annihilate the middle east and that may cause a major war that we would have no choice but to get into. There are nukes in the region and that is the next great crisis. We are not so great that we can solve the problems by getting involved and not getting involved creates other problems.
I don't see any easy solutions. At least I will admit it. But I come down on the side of crushing an adversary to send a message to others. We are to concerned about the "civilians" in Iraq and Afganistan. They read this as a weakness. And we have been proving them right for generations.

Kevin

What spin? It's not possible to trade with a country without taking up arms either for or against them? I didn't know that.

You just want to be the neighborhood bully. I understand that. Well, get it over with. There are plenty of people who don't like us, start the carpet bombing. But don't get your panties in a bunch when people start comparing you to Hitler.

Let the bombing commence :

Black_And_Blue wrote:Let the bombing commence :

im all for bombing all the colored parts of that map and a 100 mile radius of the grey as well. Just to make sure we get them all.

Sorry jpete, you are wrong. I am not in favor of being the bully at all. I am in favor of treating people like they treat us.
Arrogant? I have met people from every country in Europe and they are all arrogant. Of course, I compare them to the service brats I grew up around. Always coming to a new town and having to make a splash to prove they are as good as everyone else. I have said before, I dont give a good g*d d**n what the rest of the world thinks about us. But if it comes down to being denied access to raw materials we need to keep us secure or be competetive, I think we have to take action to survive. Why else are we in the Middle East? Oil,Oil, and Oil and nothing else. Should we let Opec shut us down? Or anyone else for that matter?
You have a lot of opinions about what has happened in the past and what we should be doing now, but the world is a shifting target. No matter what stance we take, the opposition will adapt and make us pay in whatever way they can. Unless it is painful or costly to them. And those are the only reasons. No one is going to just go along to be good guys or out of kindness. Humans just hate it when someone else is #1. They will organize into groups to bring about the demise of the stronger group in hopes of coming out on top in the chaos. It has happened again and again. Sort of like "Change you can believe in". By the way, I am not trying to attack you, I like your opinions about economics. But you can be very forceful and opinionated about world policy and the constitution. Maybe you are practicing for your political career if it ever takes off. I hope it does.

Kevin

KLook wrote:Sorry jpete, you are wrong. I am not in favor of being the bully at all. I am in favor of treating people like they treat us.
Arrogant? I have met people from every country in Europe and they are all arrogant. Of course, I compare them to the service brats I grew up around. Always coming to a new town and having to make a splash to prove they are as good as everyone else. I have said before, I dont give a good g*d d**n what the rest of the world thinks about us. But if it comes down to being denied access to raw materials we need to keep us secure or be competetive, I think we have to take action to survive. Why else are we in the Middle East? Oil,Oil, and Oil and nothing else. Should we let Opec shut us down? Or anyone else for that matter?
You have a lot of opinions about what has happened in the past and what we should be doing now, but the world is a shifting target. No matter what stance we take, the opposition will adapt and make us pay in whatever way they can. Unless it is painful or costly to them. And those are the only reasons. No one is going to just go along to be good guys or out of kindness. Humans just hate it when someone else is #1. They will organize into groups to bring about the demise of the stronger group in hopes of coming out on top in the chaos. It has happened again and again. Sort of like "Change you can believe in". By the way, I am not trying to attack you, I like your opinions about economics. But you can be very forceful and opinionated about world policy and the constitution. Maybe you are practicing for your political career if it ever takes off. I hope it does.

Kevin

The political class would never have me. It's fairly obvious that I can't toe the line.

I am interested in some of the things you say though.

I am in favor of treating people like they treat us

I dont give a good g*d d**n what the rest of the world thinks about us

But if it comes down to being denied access to raw materials we need to keep us secure or be competetive, I think we have to take action to survive

Don't you see we ARE being treated the way we treat others? After 200 years, we are reaping what we have sown.

You seem to think the Earth belongs to the USA and we have a right to unfettered access to it's riches. And if we are denied, we are justified in taking it. You don't see how that might piss people off?

Do you break into your neighbors house because he has something you want? If not, and I suspect not, then why is it OK for us as a country to break into our neighbors and take what we want? Why is it wrong on a micro level but right on a macro level?

You can "trade" with other countries to get what you want. Be an American! Offer them something they can't get anywhere else! Build something of value! But when you endorse a policy of stealing, then you lose.

I've got a million ideas to turn things around. The thing is, no one would do them. The money doesn't flow to the "right" people. And that's what it's about. Always has been. So I don't expect to change anyone's mind, or change the direction of the country, but as long as I'm able, I'll keep exercising my right to speak.

I`ve got to agree with that jpete, no matter which currency you use or what you have to sell or trade from whatever country or government greed is the underlining thing that drives it all.