CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: KLook On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:29 pm

A comment about morals jpete. Many great civilizations came to power by brutal means. And then they got fat and happy and were overrun by a hungry neighbor. This is a simplification for sure about how countries rose and fell in the past, but it works. No one ever stayed in power by loving everyone to death. And neither will we. Who are we trying to impress anyway? The French? The British? We could torture everyone we think has some knowledge about Osama and still not even dent the amount of killing and outright genocide that has occurred in human history. Speak softly and carry a big stick.

Kevin
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:57 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Two things to consider here:

1. Waterboarding "became" torture in 2004 whereas prior to that it was not considered torture and encouraged by both parties after 9/11.




Um no. Soldiers were court martialed for waterboarding in Vietnam.

http://waterboarding.org/node/19

We also convicted japanese soldiers of war crimes for waterboarding in WW2

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals. As a general rule, the testimony was similar to Nielsen's. Consider this account from a Filipino waterboarding victim:

Q: Was it painful?

A: Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water.

Q: Like you were drowning?

A: Drowning -- you could hardly breathe.

Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:

They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.

And from the second prisoner: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.

As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01170.html
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:29 pm

KLook wrote:A comment about morals jpete. Many great civilizations came to power by brutal means. And then they got fat and happy and were overrun by a hungry neighbor. This is a simplification for sure about how countries rose and fell in the past, but it works. No one ever stayed in power by loving everyone to death. And neither will we. Who are we trying to impress anyway? The French? The British? We could torture everyone we think has some knowledge about Osama and still not even dent the amount of killing and outright genocide that has occurred in human history. Speak softly and carry a big stick.

Kevin


So what does the Declaration of Independence stand for? Just window dressing?

What about all the claims I've heard recently about being a "Christian" nation? I guess they mean the Christians that slaughtered all the non-believers during the Crusades, not the ones who said "Do unto others....."

What you've got backward, is all those other "civilizations" existed for themselves, to enslave the population. Ours was founded "of the People, by the People, and for the People."

That's who government should be trying to impress. The people they allegedly serve. I could give a f*ck about Britain and France. Our government exists because "we the People" said it does.

You've bought the illusion that it's the other way around. You and several million other Americans. So you're in good company. Unfortunately, that thinking leads to slavery.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:31 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:Two things to consider here:

1. Waterboarding "became" torture in 2004 whereas prior to that it was not considered torture and encouraged by both parties after 9/11.




Um no. Soldiers were court martialed for waterboarding in Vietnam.

http://waterboarding.org/node/19

We also convicted japanese soldiers of war crimes for waterboarding in WW2

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals. As a general rule, the testimony was similar to Nielsen's. Consider this account from a Filipino waterboarding victim:

Q: Was it painful?

A: Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water.

Q: Like you were drowning?

A: Drowning -- you could hardly breathe.

Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:

They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.

And from the second prisoner: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.

As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01170.html


You for got one.

As early as the Spanish Inquisition it was used for interrogation purposes, to punish and intimidate, and to force confessions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

But we're not "savages" like them.....:roll:
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:41 pm

I look at it this way. If someone has your child held hostage and you know he has a knife . You have at your finger tips EVERYTHING you need to stop this guy including a gun. Are you going to be the "better man" and do nothing? Or are you going to be a good father and shoot the SOB when all else failed? Personally, I would rather be a good dad. :rambo:
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:46 pm

mr1precision wrote:I look at it this way. If someone has your child held hostage and you know he has a knife . You have at your finger tips EVERYTHING you need to stop this guy including a gun. Are you going to be the "better man" and do nothing? Or are you going to be a good father and shoot the SOB when all else failed? Personally, I would rather be a good dad. :rambo:



Here's a better analogy.

Someone has your child held hostage. We've rounded up 25 guys. If you shoot the right one your child walks away. But you have no way of knowing which is the right one.

Do you shoot 24 innocent people in order to be sure you kill the one guilty one?
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:54 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
mr1precision wrote:I look at it this way. If someone has your child held hostage and you know he has a knife . You have at your finger tips EVERYTHING you need to stop this guy including a gun. Are you going to be the "better man" and do nothing? Or are you going to be a good father and shoot the SOB when all else failed? Personally, I would rather be a good dad. :rambo:



Here's a better analogy.

Someone has your child held hostage. We've rounded up 25 guys. If you shoot the right one your child walks away. But you have no way of knowing which is the right one.

Do you shoot 24 innocent people in order to be sure you kill the one guilty one?


Answer mine first.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:57 pm

mr1precision wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:
mr1precision wrote:I look at it this way. If someone has your child held hostage and you know he has a knife . You have at your finger tips EVERYTHING you need to stop this guy including a gun. Are you going to be the "better man" and do nothing? Or are you going to be a good father and shoot the SOB when all else failed? Personally, I would rather be a good dad. :rambo:



Here's a better analogy.

Someone has your child held hostage. We've rounded up 25 guys. If you shoot the right one your child walks away. But you have no way of knowing which is the right one.

Do you shoot 24 innocent people in order to be sure you kill the one guilty one?


Answer mine first.



I shoot him. But that's not torture. The cause and effect is clear. I shoot this person, my kid walks away. It's like shooting the pirates in the lifeboat.

Now you answer mine.

Do you murder 24 innocent people to ensure getting the one guilty one?
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:01 pm

I would shoot them all if thats what it took. Then I'd have a huge bowl of pasta and take a nap. :D
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:08 pm

mr1precision wrote:I would shoot them all if thats what it took. Then I'd have a huge bowl of pasta and take a nap. :D


So you're OK with the villages the Nazis wiped out because one of the citizens was a partisan?

As long as the end is justified in your mind any means is ok.

There's no such thing as immorality as long as you approve of the end goal.

Wow.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:11 pm

mr1precision wrote:I would shoot them all if thats what it took. Then I'd have a huge bowl of pasta and take a nap. :D



I'm flabbergasted here.

Your argument essentially justifies terrorism as acceptable as long as the terrorists believe the goals are worthy.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:13 pm

mr1precision wrote:I would shoot them all if thats what it took. Then I'd have a huge bowl of pasta and take a nap. :D


You'd probably look at it a little differently if you were one of the two dozen.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:21 pm

ErikLaurence
I shoot him. But that's not torture.


Oh, I see torture is bad murder is good. Ya, that makes sense.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:22 pm

jpete wrote:
mr1precision wrote:I would shoot them all if thats what it took. Then I'd have a huge bowl of pasta and take a nap. :D


You'd probably look at it a little differently if you were one of the two dozen.

I wouldnt hang with that crowd.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:26 pm

mr1precision wrote:
ErikLaurence
I shoot him. But that's not torture.


Oh, I see torture is bad murder is good. Ya, that makes sense.


Are you familiar with the theory of self defense and the defense of others who are in imminent danger? Because if a person is holding your child at knifepoint, and you have the opportunity to shoot him, then that's not murder. That's self defense.

If a guy is minding his own business walking down the street and you shoot him, that's murder.

Do I seriously have to explain this or do you enjoy being obtuse?
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