CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:28 pm

jpete wrote:
mr1precision wrote:
ErikLaurence
I shoot him. But that's not torture.


Oh, I see torture is bad murder is good. Ya, that makes sense.


Are you familiar with the theory of self defense and the defense of others who are in imminent danger? Because if a person is holding your child at knifepoint, and you have the opportunity to shoot him, then that's not murder. That's self defense.

If a guy is minding his own business walking down the street and you shoot him, that's murder.

Do I seriously have to explain this or do you enjoy being obtuse?

Yes I'm pretty much busting your chops.
mr1precision
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:30 pm

mr1precision wrote:
jpete wrote:
mr1precision wrote:I would shoot them all if thats what it took. Then I'd have a huge bowl of pasta and take a nap. :D


You'd probably look at it a little differently if you were one of the two dozen.

I wouldnt hang with that crowd.


Which crowd is that? The crowd that resembles any random person who might have committed a crime? I'm guessing you have never been falsely accused. How about pulled over by the police because you "fit a description"?

I've had both happen to me, and let's just say I'm glad you don't write the rules of law enforcement.
jpete
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:31 pm

mr1precision wrote:Yes I'm pretty much busting your chops.


But you still don't see a problem with torture. I'd feel better if I thought you were dumb. ;)
jpete
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:43 pm

jpete wrote:
mr1precision wrote:Yes I'm pretty much busting your chops.


But you still don't see a problem with torture. I'd feel better if I thought you were dumb. ;)


I think that ONLY EXTREME circumstances it should be an option. If you do dont think there is ANY circumstance that it should be used your not be realistic.
BTW, don't worry I wont make any laws. I promise!
mr1precision
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: RMA On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:40 pm

This "torture" is a subject that will be argued for all time, or until an attack on US SOIL....

I reflect back upon a statement from a VP when I was pup in Business: "Extreme Times Call For Extreme Measures"

Siting Sanctimonious Platitudes about "Fair Treatment", the US Declaration of Independence, Quoting US Constitution & Geneva Conventions:
don't seem to apply when you're trying to defend "Un-uniformed Combatants"sworn to eradicate Americans, Jews, and anybody else
these TERRORISTS should decide to exterminate...THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...


Bob

ps The US does not need this Kumbaya Barama now...He damn well better learn fast & toughen-up...
We need to be TOUGH..NO "DUMB-ASS" BOWING TO SHEIKS....I feel humiliated every time I see that Stupid Stunt on TV :sick:
RMA
 

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:00 pm

RMA wrote:This "torture" is a subject that will be argued for all time, or until an attack on US SOIL....

I reflect back upon a statement from a VP when I was pup in Business: "Extreme Times Call For Extreme Measures"

Siting Sanctimonious Platitudes about "Fair Treatment", the US Declaration of Independence, Quoting US Constitution & Geneva Conventions:
don't seem to apply when you're trying to defend "Un-uniformed Combatants"sworn to eradicate Americans, Jews, and anybody else
these TERRORISTS should decide to exterminate...THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...


Bob

ps The US does not need this Kumbaya Barama now...He damn well better learn fast & toughen-up...
We need to be TOUGH..NO "DUMB-ASS" BOWING TO SHEIKS....I feel humiliated every time I see that Stupid Stunt on TV :sick:


If you can wear your morals like a spring jacket, slipping them off when it starts to get a little warm, then you have no morals at all.

These "un-uniformed combatants" are criminals, and we have rules and ways to deal with criminals.
jpete
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: bhorenstein On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:24 am

RMA wrote:This "torture" is a subject that will be argued for all time, or until an attack on US SOIL....

I reflect back upon a statement from a VP when I was pup in Business: "Extreme Times Call For Extreme Measures"

Siting Sanctimonious Platitudes about "Fair Treatment", the US Declaration of Independence, Quoting US Constitution & Geneva Conventions:
don't seem to apply when you're trying to defend "Un-uniformed Combatants"sworn to eradicate Americans, Jews, and anybody else
these TERRORISTS should decide to exterminate...THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...



The problem with that thinking is ...Who decides when the "Times" are extreme?
I can't think of a time in my life that a good case couldn't have been made for the "Times" being extreme. (whether the Cold War, Vietnam, Somalia, Gulf War I...anytime could be considered "Extreme"
Therefore, torture would become the norm rather than the exception & we would no longer be the America that is looked up to, leads by example & can claim any moral superiority over the Iran's or North Korea's of the world..

I would think that no evil government has ever existed that thought it was evil. Whether Nazi Germany, Iraq (under Saddam), the Soviet Union under Stalin. They all had convinced themselves that THEY were good & righteous & just living in a dangerous time. Once you convince yourself that you are required to do bad things to survive in an evil world you have lost any claim to decency or morality.
bhorenstein
 

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:15 am

Again I submit the following :

Individuals captured on a foreign battlefield who otherwise could have been shot, fragged or irradiated to death are not afforded the protections of US citizens.

On a local level and under the US judicial system, even a petty thief who enters your home loses his right to life because your right of self defense supersedes.

The classic case example for "torture" is having someone in custody who has knowledge of the location of a nuclear device set to go off. On one hand you can maintain your morals and high minded views at the expense of 5, 10 or 20 thousand lives. Or, you get down to brass tacks and get the information out of the son of bitch any way you can.

Eisenhower made a choice to nuke 200,000 Japanese to end a war, surely putting caterpillars in an Islamic Jihadists cell isn't torture yet we refer the matter to a room full of lawyers to parse out the definitions of words.

Edit : back to the topic

How does everyone else feel about these torture practices being released?


Transparency, let's have it. ALL OF IT.
Last edited by Black_And_Blue on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: RMA On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:25 am

bhorenstein wrote:
RMA wrote:This "torture" is a subject that will be argued for all time, or until an attack on US SOIL....

I reflect back upon a statement from a VP when I was pup in Business: "Extreme Times Call For Extreme Measures"

Siting Sanctimonious Platitudes about "Fair Treatment", the US Declaration of Independence, Quoting US Constitution & Geneva Conventions:
don't seem to apply when you're trying to defend "Un-uniformed Combatants"sworn to eradicate Americans, Jews, and anybody else
these TERRORISTS should decide to exterminate...THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...



The problem with that thinking is ...Who decides when the "Times" are extreme?
I can't think of a time in my life that a good case couldn't have been made for the "Times" being extreme. (whether the Cold War, Vietnam, Somalia, Gulf War I...anytime could be considered "Extreme"
Therefore, torture would become the norm rather than the exception & we would no longer be the America that is looked up to, leads by example & can claim any moral superiority over the Iran's or North Korea's of the world..

I would think that no evil government has ever existed that thought it was evil. Whether Nazi Germany, Iraq (under Saddam), the Soviet Union under Stalin. They all had convinced themselves that THEY were good & righteous & just living in a dangerous time. Once you convince yourself that you are required to do bad things to survive in an evil world you have lost any claim to decency or morality.




SOFT & HUGGY, godly, if you will...AS MY "HERO" RICHARD GERE advised: "Turn the other cheek" as the Trade Center continued to burn...
would END the United States...PERIOD...EVIL, TRUE PALPABLE EVIL would prevail

So, without attempting to redefine History I will offer that:
If you can SMELL DEATH (in New Jersey), or friends and neighbors have died at their desks, at work, in NYC...
PLOTS are discovered to Further Destroy Life In the US...
Then THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...
This is REAL !!! "SCHOOL IS OUT".... This isn't a Harvard classroom...These people will gut you like fish, dismember your live body, decapitate you for DRAMATIC EFFECT, their creed is that YOU MUST CAPITULATE, totally...

THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...


Bob
RMA
 

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:48 am

Black_And_Blue wrote:Again I submit the following :

Individuals captured on a foreign battlefield who otherwise could have been shot, fragged or irradiated to death are not afforded the protections of US citizens.

On a local level and under the US judicial system, even a petty thief who enters your home loses his right to life because your right of self defense supersedes.

The classic case example for "torture" is having someone in custody who has knowledge of the location of a nuclear device set to go off. On one hand you can maintain your morals and high minded views at the expense of 5, 10 or 20 thousand lives. Or, you get down to brass tacks and get the information out of the son of bitch any way you can.

Eisenhower made a choice to nuke 200,000 Japanese to end a war, surely putting caterpillars in an Islamic Jihadists cell isn't torture yet we refer the matter to a room full of lawyers to parse out the definitions of words.

Edit : back to the topic

How does everyone else feel about these torture practices being released?


Transparency, let's have it.


Many of those people in GitMo were picked up on a street in Britain, or Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Unless we are going with GWB's proposal that the entire world is "the field of battle" then I think you are a little off.

And your classic case for torture is a scene out of "24", not how it's actually done. How would you know what any particular person knew? Some of them brag about their actions, but by definition of trying to extract information from them, you don't know what they know, if anything. What happens when you torture a guy for six months and then decide "Ooops, he really didn't know anything". Then what?

How about 14 and 15 year old kids? No problem beating them? Make you "proud to be an American?" Not me.

You've bought the hype that this is a "war". If it were, we'd just level which ever country we needed to. But we aren't doing that. Even the administration knows it's not a "war". And even in war, we don't torture prisoners.
jpete
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:51 am

These are not extreme times.

Simply put:

THEY CAN'T WIN.

If these are extreme times then we must be at risk of losing what makes us Americans. As tragic as losing 3000 Americans is it does not put our society or who we are at risk.

If you are not in jeopardy of losing the times are not extreme.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:53 am

RMA wrote:
bhorenstein wrote:
RMA wrote:This "torture" is a subject that will be argued for all time, or until an attack on US SOIL....

I reflect back upon a statement from a VP when I was pup in Business: "Extreme Times Call For Extreme Measures"

Siting Sanctimonious Platitudes about "Fair Treatment", the US Declaration of Independence, Quoting US Constitution & Geneva Conventions:
don't seem to apply when you're trying to defend "Un-uniformed Combatants"sworn to eradicate Americans, Jews, and anybody else
these TERRORISTS should decide to exterminate...THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...



The problem with that thinking is ...Who decides when the "Times" are extreme?
I can't think of a time in my life that a good case couldn't have been made for the "Times" being extreme. (whether the Cold War, Vietnam, Somalia, Gulf War I...anytime could be considered "Extreme"
Therefore, torture would become the norm rather than the exception & we would no longer be the America that is looked up to, leads by example & can claim any moral superiority over the Iran's or North Korea's of the world..

I would think that no evil government has ever existed that thought it was evil. Whether Nazi Germany, Iraq (under Saddam), the Soviet Union under Stalin. They all had convinced themselves that THEY were good & righteous & just living in a dangerous time. Once you convince yourself that you are required to do bad things to survive in an evil world you have lost any claim to decency or morality.




SOFT & HUGGY, godly, if you will...AS MY "HERO" RICHARD GERE advised: "Turn the other cheek" as the Trade Center continued to burn...
would END the United States...PERIOD...EVIL, TRUE PALPABLE EVIL would prevail

So, without attempting to redefine History I will offer that:
If you can SMELL DEATH (in New Jersey), or friends and neighbors have died at their desks, at work, in NYC...
PLOTS are discovered to Further Destroy Life In the US...
Then THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...
This is REAL !!! "SCHOOL IS OUT".... This isn't a Harvard classroom...These people will gut you like fish, dismember your live body, decapitate you for DRAMATIC EFFECT, their creed is that YOU MUST CAPITULATE, totally...

THESE ARE EXTREME TIMES...


Bob


We've got tons of people in prison who will rip out your guts just for fun. Who should we declare war on? You can't mix up acts of war with criminal activity.
jpete
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: RMA On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:35 am

I have to let this "discussion" Go...

It seems that if you ARE FAR ENOUGH AWAY from the HEAT, FIRE, SMOKE, DEATH
and it was just a few misguided individuals causing a problem... no worries,
AFTERALL...
it was only three thousand of "US" in that died in NY, PA, & DC.


Bob
RMA
 

Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:01 am

RMA wrote:I have to let this "discussion" Go...

It seems that if you ARE FAR ENOUGH AWAY from the HEAT, FIRE, SMOKE, DEATH
and it was just a few misguided individuals causing a problem... no worries,
AFTERALL...
it was only three thousand of "US" in that died in NY, PA, & DC.


Bob



Yup. It was 3000 people dying. Tragic. Not a threat to the US. Even if they killed 3000 people each and every year, it's tragic, but not a threat.

There are twice that many pedestrians killed every year.

There are 30,000 firearms related deaths in the US.

There are 45,000 motor vehicle deaths.


The only real threat of terrorism to the US is our overreaction to it.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: CIA (obama admin) Leaks Only Certain Torture Documents

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:44 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:The only real threat of terrorism to the US is our overreaction to it.


I think underreaction is the threat, since the 70's these acts have been increasing in both quantity and magnitude. Yes "only" 3,000 died however that number was greatly offset by those that escaped because of the excellent response by emergency personnel some of whom are no longer with us and a orderly evacuation after the the planes hit. Imagine the carnage if both towers fell when the planes hit? It could have been much, much worse.

On a typical weekday 50,000 people worked in the towers[76] with another 200,000 passing through as visitors.


So if both collapsed on impact how many dead? 50k? 100k?

Do we sit here and wait for the next bigger and larger attack or do something about it? This is not the end of it, either we try and put a stop to it and hope we do enough to prevent it and if that means making someone feel like they are drowning *censored* 'em and hand me the water.
Richard S.
 
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