SS liner woes

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:18 pm

Mike,

I appreciate you looking into this on my behalf. Is this forum great or what ?????


Several stickers on it and they all say "316 alloy chimney liner". I ASSumed that meant 316 Ti but it specifically does not mention the Ti.

Problem seems to me to be the dealer. Although he did say that the manufacturer would warrant the product, it was the $ 1200 installation fee that burned me up. Plus after doing a little research in the install instructions, it does mention the use of an insulation wrap around the liner but none was used.

I'll admit that it is a bitch of an install. The chimney is not on the eave end of the house but on the front side standing alone. It is attached to the side of the house up and now through a large front porch we installed with about a 15' ceiling. Then access has to be made from the porch roof where the chimney stands alone and proud straigh up for another 8-10 feet.

I still question the need for it in the first place. Hopefully by Wednesday, I'll have another chimney expert tell me the exact condition of the existing flue. At that point, I'll decide if we want another liner. I just hope that we weren't sold on a liner when none was ever needed.

One nice thing through this ordeal, I discovered that we have an 8" thinble through the original foundation. There is no cleanout door, but there is a cleanout well which I figured may have some very old ash in the bottom of it. Through out the years, my father-in-law would struggle with putting 6" pipe into the thimble and then mudding it up to seal everything. Removing this liner and the mortar around the pipes, revealed the 8" thimble. I just bought an 8" to 6" reducer and attached the pipe to it. I needed very little mortar - just enough to real the connection of the reducer to the thimble. Metal tape also cover all pipe joints.

Manometer was recording .01 yesterday afternoon in 80* temps. I've got both CO alarms primed for action if needed.


---------------------------------------------------------


Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: 009to090 On: Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:08 pm

Wow! What a mess. I'm gonna pin those pics up by my furnace to remind me to never get a liner. I think Richard said it best; if you need a liner, you need to install a new chimney.
Good thing we have great people like Mike on this forum, that can take the time and call the manufacturer on your behalf. Time to switch Dealers! :D

Yeah, the "Ti" is important:
Grade 316Ti is similar to Grade 316L except that 316Ti has better high temperature strength, and mechanical strength. Used for equipment exposed to aggressive corrosive conditions and high temperature applications,including automotive flexible connectors, welded bellows, chimney liners, and flexible ducting.
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Complete Heat On: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:07 pm

DVC,

Thanks for the kind words.

Rick,

How old is the house? I think all of the Ultra-pro liners are 316TI. The insulation is used more for condensing gas/oil appliances to help exhaust the by-products of combustion out of the liner without leaving behind the acids. In a wood stove application it is for clearance to combustibles, and to keep the smoke warm so that the creosote that was not burned does not condense along the side walls of the liner, leading to a chimney fire. For coal, the insulation does nothing more than increase the draft. The lack of insulation, while called for, is not a safety/durability concern in your case, hence you will get a new liner out of it. Homesaver has never disallowed a warranty claim, and they are not going to start now.

Mike
Complete Heat
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Axeman-Anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: AA-130/FHA


Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: stoker-man On: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:52 am

Good service, Mike !

I'd really be interested to see why that liner failed.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:08 am

Mike,

It is a very old farm house. Dry mortar stone foundation, hand hewn beams for floor joists, log beams in the walls using mortise and tenon joints above the window openings, hand split lath under horsehair plaster, 12" wide plank floors in the upper floors, etc. The basement was originally dirt but was hand dug out and cement poured 30+ years ago. Some have speculated it may have been made in the 1800's.

As I posted in the starting post, when this was first installed, there was a "Y" connection right inside the basement wall at the thimble. This was so that we could hook up either the oil burner or the AA 260. We never used both at the same time. The unused leg of the "Y" was capped off. The AA was piped with 6" SS single wall pipe to the "Y" THe oil burner used standard galvanized pipe. The liner was installed in July '04 when we installed a new EFM oil burner. The oil burner was used until that fall when we fired up the AA. I may have used the oil burner in the summer of '05 but I know for sure that we have had the AA in service 24/7 365 since the fall of '06.

Last fall I noticed what I thought were twigs in the bottom of the flue pipe when we removed the connector from the AA to the thimble to do the fall maintanance. When I went up to the chimney top to remove the cap was when I noticed the top of the liner was disintegrating. And that they were not twigs but actually parts of the liner falling down the pipe.

At this time I have lost faith in the original installer. It started with him first denying the claim since his records showed an oil burner hookup and not a coal boiler. After I reminded him that they made the pipe from the "Y" to the AA, he then went to the fact that they never came out to do a yearly service.

I do have the remains of the liner if anyone from the company wants to sample it.

I have another chimney inspector scheduled for tomorrow at noon. I'll let everyone know the results after his visit.


-----------------------------------------------------------


Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:33 am

"Interesting in removing the liner.....perforation holes first noticed about 8' up from the thimble. That piece got so bad that it separated from the rest. Then another 8' until that fell apart. The rest of the liner was just pieces of coils."

I've been trying to tell people about how rediculous a stainless liner is when burning coal. it's not just the acids in the coal, as i've explained here before, it's actually the iron particles in the flyash that allow a pinhole to develop by perforating the stainless steel's protective oxide layer; the acid just makes it worse. additionally, the constant burn of a coal-fired appliance (unlike an oil furnace etc.) is even more detrimental to the liners health; in order for stainless to remain corrosion resistant it actually needs oxygen in abundance to replace it's oxide layer and prevent pinholes from developing. even with 316ti, you may not notice any pinholes after 5 years, but i'm sure they're there; whether you notice them or not is not the issue. stainless liners are a waste of money and a hazard, they can perforate and collapse cutting off the flue; and there are other hazards that are less likely but possible that i'm not going to get into in this post. Provided there's not giant gaping holes in the brick chase a liner is not needed at all for coal; having a terra cotta one is nice, but not necessary; a stainless one (unless attempting to correct a HORRIBLY oversize flue or major draft issue) is just dumb.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: stoker-man On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:07 am

My parent's chimney is 81 years old. It is nothing more than brick with no clay liner. Coal was used for the first 40 years and oil for the second 40. Except for loose brick at the very top, it is in perfect condition.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: BigBarney On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:06 pm

From the thin material that the spiral flues are made of,probably all will

fail no matter what type of stainless steel is used.The environment in a

chimney is not compatible with any material except a clay tile type of

liner.The combination of corrosive acids,moisture, and heat will destroy

any type of steel.If a solid steel liner was made of a heavier gauge steel

were used (.030) you could get maybe thirty years of use before it too

would fail and need replacing.The steel used in corrugated liners are

really thin .004-.010 so when rolled into the spiral liners some spots

are even thinner and these will go first,especially near the rolled seal

of the corrugation.

If a new chimney is needed an investment in the future would be masonry

chimney with a clay liner which can last many centuries if properly cleaned

and minor maintenance is regularly performed.


BigBarney
BigBarney
 

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:40 pm

Update,

The other chimney specialist was out this afternoon. Good thing......there was still some of the old liner remnants still inside the chimney. Along with some fiberglass insulation and some type of mechanics wire.

He removed the partial clog and then did a thorough brushing on the entire 32.5' chimney down to the thimble. After that he said that the terra cotta liner appears to be in good condition. There is some flaking which is to be expexted due to its age. And there might be a loose joint here or there. Nothing to be terribly concerned about. He did mention that the flue cap is only 304 stainless but says that it is in good shape. He said that that particular design is actually better than the 316 TI that they normally supply with a liner system as itm covers a larger area.

He did suggest that I pursue the replacement liner if it is supplied under the warranty. And to keep it if needed later. I guess it should not rot in the garage.


Everyone feels better now that it has been inspected. I'll be checking the manometer when I get home shortly. It was reading -.01 to -.02 this afternoon immediately after I hooked the pipe back up to the AA. I guess now that we have some wind and rain I had better uncover the baro.


Breathing easier.


----------------------------------------------------

Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:44 pm

Sound like good advice!
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: 009to090 On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:49 pm

Rick, Good news! That was a good idea to get the liner anyway, and just store it. You already paid for it, might as well get a new one if its covered under the warrentee. Other than removing the old liner pieces, did the inspecter recommend you do any work on the chimney? Sounds like its good-to-go. :clap:
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: 009to090 On: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:54 pm

Rick, If your Sister-in-law's liner ever fails, you could give her the new liner you'll get from your warrentee. Or, she could have her chimney inspected by the same guy that inspected yours. Maybe she doesn't need a liner either! :shock:
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:19 am

Chris,

He basically said that we are good to go. Just keep an eye on it and check to see if any part of the terra cotta flakes off partially blocking the flue.

By continually monitoring the draft with the Dwyer, I don't expect any problems. We also have a Kidde Nighthawk right at the top of the basement steps. If I mess around with the baro at all, I can notice any CO almost immediately. Also with the liner removed, and since we have a straight up chimney, it should be fairly easy to stick a mirror through the thimble for a look see up the chimney.

I just may get this guy to clean the flue for the next year or two on an annual basis to have him monitor any change.

BTW, I did notice a slight rise in the draft since he removed the partial clog. With this wet, rainy weather right now, I'm happy at -.015 to -.02 :dancing: :clap:

Not sure what I'm gonna do about the sister-in-laws place. :confused: :gee:


-----------------------------------------


Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:51 pm

Rick 386 wrote:And to keep it if needed later. I guess it should not rot in the garage.

Sell it, you have enough invested in this nightmare.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: SS liner woes

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:32 pm

I've got to publicly thank Mike from Complete Heat in Nashua, NH for his help on this issue. :clap: :up: :dancing: :junmp:

I've never met Mike but had seen him post here on quite a few topics. After his responses on this topic he in fact did contact the manufacturer of the pipe who in turn called me to offer up a free replacement liner. Only issue is that they will only send the replacement to one of their dealers. I know who is NOT going to be receiving it. I'm trying to get the guy who cleaned and inspected the chimney to receive it for me. He is also a registered distributer of the same type liner.

Again thanks Mike. I owe you big time. :gee: Will this do ?? :beer:

I will be touting your services through my auto body contacts up there in the New England area.


Again thanks....if we ever meet at a "meet and greet" I'll buy you a few !!!!!!


Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work