Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:17 pm

joeblack5 wrote: ( 35%) If the electric generation by coal can be reduced by using solar and wind then that will be a huge environmental benefit


You will only achieve that with enormous cost.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite


Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:35 pm

Richard S. wrote:
joeblack5 wrote:Regarding the 8 Am 0 degree no solar ......... that is where Elon Musks power wall battery comes in.

You're not thinking these things through, what if it's like that for two weeks? what kind of capacity and storage do you think you would require?

Very true. It is really the large generators who have to store the power, because they otherwise need expensive excess capacity, and can't ramp up and ramp down the generators quickly. There are ways to do it, but they aren't necessarily cheap. One example is to produce the power ahead of time, use it to pump water uphill to storage, then release the water to drive turbines when the power is needed.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: joeblack5 On: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:48 pm

Then may be you would start an emergency generator just like you probably already have. There are always extremes that do not fit . Like the snow breaking a couple of power cables and leaving you without power for a couple of weeks.

Elon Musks part is a battery for daily use . peaks in solar can be spread so that you can use it at night and may be another day. Beyond that there are other options that will be a solution for the horrible inefficiency of electric power .

micro cogen:


http://www.cogenmicro.com/index.php?select=165

https://www.yanmar.com/global/energy/mi ... n_package/

my particular interest is micro cogen with fossil fuels like wood or coal and that together with solar and heat pump. sofar my cogen uses wvo and a lister diesel clone.
i think i have it thought thru quit well
joeblack5
 

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: warminmn On: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:44 pm

You'd be better off to spend half that amount and prepare yourself so that you didnt need any power, other than a trickle here and there. All that available power does is make you depend on it more, a vicious cycle. What about when that quits, needs repair, gets stolen, or wears out? Im talking long term outage, not a week. Then you dont have any way to cope with the very problems you created, which is your own dependence on it.
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:35 am

rberq wrote:use it to pump water uphill to storage, then release the water to drive turbines when the power is needed.


Yes, I've heard it suggested before but it can involve a lot of ifrastrucure and the larger problem is the energy expense. Your capicity needs grow even further.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:53 am

joeblack5 wrote:There are always extremes that do not fit .


The scenario have I outlined is not extreme and entirely plausible.



They have natural gas cogeneration for larger buildings. Similar things have been discussed here. The problem is once you get by the expense of the electric generation which could be substantial you still have the issue of storage/net metering.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:22 am

Richard S. wrote:
joeblack5 wrote:There are always extremes that do not fit .


The scenario have I outlined is not extreme and entirely plausible. ............


It sure is here in CNY. In fact it's not just plausible, but a way of life here. We recently went through a week and one half of maybe a couple of hours of sun that whole time. Here in the lee of the Great Lakes we get long periods of no sunny days. That's why the winter months here are also called the "gray months". They also happen to be months we use more power.

The sun came out for a few hours today - the first it's been out since Friday afternoon before the storm rolled in. And that's not unusual.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: warminmn On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:50 am

Sunny Boy wrote:It sure is here in CNY. In fact it's not just plausible, but a way of life here. We recently went through a week and one half of maybe a couple of hours of sun that whole time. Here in the lee of the Great Lakes we get long periods of no sunny days. That's why the winter months here are also called the "gray months". They also happen to be months we use more power.

The sun came out for a few hours today - the first it's been out since Friday afternoon before the storm rolled in. And that's not unusual.

Paul


The above a quote by Sunnyboy, I screwed up the quote feature.

Out of curiosity are you talking about storms or fog? My time spent near the great lakes has been limited.
Last edited by warminmn on Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Quote box
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood


Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: joeblack5 On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:55 am

If you can save 35 %energy for 80 % of the time then that is a pretty big savings from an energy and pollution standpoint.
The other 10% of the time you can be still smart as grandma and hang the laundry outside to dry when the sun shines. Of coarse never if you are under a the smoke of an industrial chimney.

The subsidy questions are not so relevant because they compare generated KWH ( ccoal, nuclear etc ) and renewables KW installed with may be generated to the moment of calculations. Since the renewable energy itself is for free that number will be washed out 15 yrs down the road with all the energy that has been generated for free.
So for solar you can get a one time credit based on installed KW and after that it is over and the energy is for free for the next 30 to 40 yrs.
I have some BP panels that I bought used 10 yrs ago and were already 10 yrs old, so now 20 yrs and they still perform at 75% of the original label.
A same size panel produces now 1.3 times the energy then the technology from 20 yrs ago.


12-255-WATT-SOLAR-PANELS-MONO-SOLAR-CELL-24-VOLT-GRID-TIE-UL-LISTED-A-GRADE
.54 PER WATT FOR LIMITED TIME 142.00 PER PANEL UL LIST

ebay # 282260382135

i have no connection to this seller or any solar business whatsoever.

If you link solar to a heat pump or domestic hot water heatpump as you can buy at lowes / home depot then the energy savings become really amazing.
We drive an electric car that is charged on solar . It has a range of 120 miles , I use it 8000miles a year , about 3000 KWh and drive a diesel another 5000 miles for long trips a year.
The 3000 miles would cost me on coal at $0.20/wh $ 600 in energy and no maintenance, except tires., about $0.05 /mile. No emission sticker required.
joeblack5
 

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:16 am

joeblack5 wrote:We drive an electric car that is charged on solar. It has a range of 120 miles

What car? What is its winter range where you live (and how cold is it wherever that is)?
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: joeblack5 On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:34 am

Live in state college PA

Car 1994 Solectria ( geo metro)
retrofitted with salvage battery from 3 year old Nissan Leaf.
top speed 80 mph flat road
total price I paid with DIY $1500 vehicle and $ 3000 battery



The newer Nissan Leaf, chevy volt, BMW Fiat 500E etc are getting in the same range.
Tesla is ahead but a little out of my price interest
joeblack5
 

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:11 am

warminmn wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:It sure is here in CNY. In fact it's not just plausible, but a way of life here. We recently went through a week and one half of maybe a couple of hours of sun that whole time. Here in the lee of the Great Lakes we get long periods of no sunny days. That's why the winter months here are also called the "gray months". They also happen to be months we use more power.

The sun came out for a few hours today - the first it's been out since Friday afternoon before the storm rolled in. And that's not unusual.

Paul


The above a quote by Sunnyboy, I screwed up the quote feature.

Out of curiosity are you talking about storms or fog? My time spent near the great lakes has been limited.


We get fog, rain, and lots of snow. But mostly it's just cloudy days with nothing falling out of the sky,....especially sun light.

This area is part of the "snow belt" that extends from Buffalo, east into VT, NH, and western Mass and from here north to the Canadian boarder. It is subject to a lot of lake affect snow. 120 inches a year is the average from here north, with areas east of lake Ontario closer to 200 inch average. Digging your way to solar panels to keep them clear can be a daily job. And If you don't clear them, solar panels are useless even when the sun shines. Very rare to see solar panels around here.

As for wind, we have lots of wind farms, but there are many days they are not turning. Especially when it gets really cold and we need the energy the most. Plus, a lot of people prefer the view without windmills sticking up out of it. And then there's the problem of bird kills.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: warminmn On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:48 am

Thanks Paul. My only experiences with the great lakes involved fog in the summer so I was curious. I think it gets foggy near Duluth in the winter but not positive. There are some solar panels here in the SE MN corner, but more windmills. I can count close to 200 windmills from my upstairs window but some are over 25 miles away. Very flat to the west, not a hill until the Missouri River in SD, seriously. it blows all summer and winter here so Im not sure why anyone would use solar instead of wind power here other than space reasons, or for small amounts. Lots of private windmills too.
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:35 pm

joeblack5 wrote:Car 1994 Solectria ( geo metro)
retrofitted with salvage battery from 3 year old Nissan Leaf.
top speed 80 mph flat road
total price I paid with DIY $1500 vehicle and $ 3000 battery

Nice! What's the weight of the Leaf battery compared to the originals the Solectria came with?
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Fossil Fuel Survialist Guide for the Sane: Part 1 Common BS

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:36 pm

WM.
We have some wind farms north of here going toward the lakes. There was a big push 15 years ago to put up wind farms. Lots of push back from locals who didn't want them for a number of reasons, mostly screwing up the views. That push died quickly and not much is being done with windmills since then. And I don't see the many trucks carrying wind mill blades like I did 15 years ago.

For anyone who thinks solar is of any benefit in a lot of the northern USA, take a look at this site of cities and % of available sunlight during the four highest energy-use months.

https://smartasset.com/insights/cities- ... ng-winters

BTW, the sun is popping in and out of clouds today. That's the first it's been out here since last Friday afternoon when that three day, lake-affect snow storm rolled in. So there's another example of a week without solar for a large portion of a well populated state,.... just like Richard was talking about. In the past month that's almost three weeks without sun light and that's close to what the % average is for much of NYS in that link I posted.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace