Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:37 am

ken wrote:"First get rid of medicare. Lots of the old people will die really quickly without medicare so that will lessen the load on the system" Why not just have a hunting season on people 65 an older. :shock:



You want private industry running this, right?

From a strictly business standpoint it is stupid to cover old people. They get sick and die at an inordinate rate. So insurance companies won't cover them if they don't have to. In the GOP world, government does not interfere with business, so they don't have to cover old people.

Old people will not be able to get health insurance. They will have to pay cash if they can afford it and do without if they can't.

This is laissez faire capitalism.

I just want to make sure the wingnuts understand what they are asking for.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am

My 90 year old Grandmother has BC and has had it for decades. Paid for a heart bypass about 15 years ago. Kicking old people to the curb is not what most people are after. Certainly she would be someone they would want to get rid of but haven't? My Grandmother who has paid a substantial amount into the plan over decades before and after her surgery with very good health should be eligible for continued coverage.

You should note this "wingnut" suggested previously that the every insurance companies be forced to provide a nationally standardized plan to anyone at the same cost to anyone. This nationally standardized plan would cover anything that is beyond the means of your average Joe like heart surgery. What we don't do is tell them what that cost is, each insurance company can come up with their own rate. Tie that in with other things like increased competition and you should see rates drop. This will get more people paying into the system. They will have no choice but to provide more reasonable coverage for major issues.

Again something needs to be done but the ideas being tossed around now are not it. This like the energy bill is full of *censored* we don't need or want.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: samhill On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:00 am

Sounds like that old movie Soylent Green ,I believe it was something like that where everyone after reaching a predetermined age just mindlessly went to be recycled into food. Guess people have no love for their parents anymore, let the old people die. I think I`m gonna go change my will at 62 I`m way too old already.
samhill
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:06 am

samhill wrote:Guess people have no love for their parents anymore, let the old people die.


My Grandmother still lives at home alone because she wants too and she is still more than able. She couldn't do it without some help both financially and taking care of the house but things get done for her and she will live there as long as she wants too providing she is able. Half the problem with this country now is the break down of the family unit.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:25 am

Richard S. wrote:You should note this "wingnut" suggested previously that the every insurance companies be forced to provide a nationally standardized plan to anyone at the same cost to anyone. This nationally standardized plan would cover anything that is beyond the means of your average Joe like heart surgery. What we don't do is tell them what that cost is, each insurance company can come up with their own rate. Tie that in with other things like increased competition and you should see rates drop. This will get more people paying into the system. They will have no choice but to provide more reasonable coverage for major issues.

Again something needs to be done but the ideas being tossed around now are not it. This like the energy bill is full of *censored* we don't need or want.


Where this breaks down is you end up with a pool skewed towards elderly sick people (a lot of them) and responsible younger people (which sadly is a proportionally smaller number). The people who opt out of this plan are younger irresponsible people (who then sign up when they're older and need coverage). The only way this idea works is you make a decision to opt in when you are 18. If you don't sign up then you can't sign up later.

I agree that something needs to be done. I think Obama is trying to do something. I don't think it will work. But the opposition he's receiving is not on the merits of the arguments, it's knee jerk opposition because it is Obama who is suggesting it. No one at the town halls are arguing on the merits. You have idiots like Sarah Palin talking about "death panels" that are just amping up the hyperbole.

The GOP does not want to fix health care, they want to beat Obama.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:28 am

Richard S. wrote:Again something needs to be done but the ideas being tossed around now are not it.
That's why I suggested the Federal Employees plan as a model for the government run insurance option. It's got all the details of the benefits published. The employee/retiree premium is also known. What's not known is the premium cost the government pays. In my area, an area with a lot of Federal employees/retirees, Blue Cross/Blue Shield is the largest provider. Each year during open enrollment the Federal BC/BS rep comes to my wife's retirement group monthly meeting with his sales pitch. He's often moaning about how OPM has required more coverage. I once asked him if it's such a bad business why not just drop out and not be a part of the Federal plan. His response was we make most of our money from the private company plans and a lot more per person from the individual coverage plans, but since we have this network of doctors in place we might as well make some money off it even though it's not much. That's the key. That's why there is so much opposition to changing the status quo. The insurance companies would make less money. With the Federal Employees plan OPM can see the claim costs and make a judgment if the premiums are in line with a reasonable profit. Insurance companies really, really don't like that.
Yanche
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:42 am

Is the break down of the family unit due partly because we know the government will take care of our sick/elderly/infirm relatives and thus no longer rely on each other? Can we make a correlation between the rise of the nanny state and the fall of the family unit. I certainly won't say it's the ONLY reason but certainly a component. As far as "knowing what I'm asking for" I'd like to ask the same for proponents of government health care. Government has NEVER shown itself to manage money well. If it did, we wouldn't be $99 trillion in debt. The other point is that Congress GAVE us the broken system they now claim to want to "fix". What leads you to believe Congress wants to "help" you with a program they have already opted out of? What's Congress' approval rating? Below 20%? NO ONE believes them. And they shouldn't.
jpete
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:51 pm

A favorite example for reference is the Social Security program.

If you focus on the fact that currently approx 3.3 person support 1 recipient (and still declining), I would argue that the Government could be eliminated from the equation and that a family could directly support their parents/grandparents more efficiently, which is amusing because.......that's the way it used to be!
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: samhill On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:18 pm

Black & blue, your not allowing for the fact that the Gov. continually takes the unspent surplus from SS & uses it for the general fund & never repays SS. Thats been going on for decades, maybe from the beginning. As I said before these problems only get addressed for a short time & Gov throws a little money around to cover until the next guy has to deal with it.
samhill
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:25 pm

samhill wrote:Black & blue, your not allowing for the fact that the Gov. continually takes the unspent surplus from SS & uses it for the general fund & never repays SS.
That's just not true. The SS trust fund is invested, it's invested in the safest from of investment, US government obligations. Special bonds issued by the Treasury for that purpose. Think about it, what would you want to invest the surplus revenue (i.e. SS taxes) in? There is no other logical choice. It has be be government securities. Just like any other government bond it's paid back in the future with interest. That interest comes from taxes to be collected in the future.
Yanche
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:46 pm

Yanche wrote:
samhill wrote:Black & blue, your not allowing for the fact that the Gov. continually takes the unspent surplus from SS & uses it for the general fund & never repays SS.
That's just not true. The SS trust fund is invested, it's invested in the safest from of investment, US government obligations. Special bonds issued by the Treasury for that purpose. Think about it, what would you want to invest the surplus revenue (i.e. SS taxes) in? There is no other logical choice. It has be be government securities. Just like any other government bond it's paid back in the future with interest. That interest comes from taxes to be collected in the future.


And what happens if tax revenue declines in the future?

What happens when you've made some many obligations that there is no possible way to pay back the money you stole from the SS kitty?

How did we get $99 TRILLION in debt?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 4230548323

In a speech at the Kennedy School of Government in February, he wrung his hands about "the very deep hole [our political leaders] have dug in incurring unfunded liabilities of retirement and health-care obligations" that "we at the Dallas Fed believe total over $99 trillion."
jpete
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:56 pm

One trillion dollars, pallets of hundreds double stacked. :shock:

http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

Image
Richard S.
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:12 pm

The H.C. bill is not about your health, it's yet another Ponzi scheme to steal your Liberty.

Help stop it or you will rue the day it was implemented.

"The way to have safe government is not to trust it all to the one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to everyone exactly the functions in which he is competent....To let the National Government be entrusted with the defense of the nation, and its foreign and federal relations..... The State Governments with the Civil Rights, Laws, Police and administration of what concerns the State generally. The Counties with the local concerns, and each ward direct the interests within itself. It is by dividing and subdividing these Republics from the great national one down through all its subordinations until it ends in the administration of everyman's farm by himself, by placing under everyone what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best."

-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:28 pm

Black_And_Blue wrote:The H.C. bill is not about your health, it's yet another Ponzi scheme to steal your Liberty.


This is the kind of hyperbole that is not really productive.

The "Patriot" act was a far greater attack on our liberty than any of the half dozen unfinished pieces of legislation that are kicking around about health care. It's just that the Patriot act was not proposed by Barack Obama.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Congress’ health care bill, H.R. 3200

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:57 am

No matter how you slice it and dice it, 17% of the economy is devoted to health care delivery. Socialist logic dictates that each and every American on a personal basis should pay 17% of their income toward health care and receive the portion of health care delivery that they need from the fixed amount delivered each year in order to be "fair". "Need" and "fairness" must be determined and controlled by the state to distribute resources equitably in the absence of market forces.

If the federal government were to collect such a tax and deliver the pro rata portion of the current fixed value of all HC to all Americans as needed, the health care benefits of the poor would increase and the health care benefits of the rich would decrease. Costs would remain about the same as one middle man, the insurance companies, are replaced by another, the federal government.

All proposed plans will ultimately ration existing HC delivery, destroy market incentives that bring new technologies and capacities to fruition, and cost us all the same or more.

As I see it, there is nothing wrong with the current system that must be fixed by an unconstitutional socialist take over of 17% of the economy.
mikeandgerry
 
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