The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: tvb On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:45 pm

Let's not forget that Jefferson also kept approximately 600 human beings in bondage over the course of his lifetime.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:59 pm

Jefferson noted, as you do, Erik, that the beauty of Christ's philosophy is its perfection, and the ugliness of religion is its human imperfection. I believe that Jefferson, as many before him and after him sought to do, was to separate the purity of devinity from the corruption of mankind. He noted the dismal state of Israel at the time of Christ's life and lived in a time still rocked by a more recent religious reformation that confirmed the imperfections of man's institutions, which ultimately aided in the formation of this nation.

I suspect that deists represented unfettered faith and purity in his mind while religion was repugnant to him being an imperfect a creation of man. Obviously he was filled with personal turmoil. He must have thought: how can one adopt the doctrine of Christ as perfection and yet reject Christ's self-proclaimed devinity? How can one recognize the inherent righteousness of religious freedom and yet be repulsed by its myriad flaws?

One thing is certain. Jefferson was a thinking man and he never feared rebuke. That's why he was great.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:04 pm

In the election of 1800 Jefferson was accused of being an infidel.

"Should the infidel Jefferson be elected to the Presidency, the seal of death is that moment set on our holy religion, our churches will be prostrated, and some infamous prostitute, under the title of goddess of reason, will preside in the sanctuaries now devoted to the worship of the most High."



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/187307/election-1800
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:13 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Jefferson noted, as you do, Erik, that the beauty of Christ's philosophy is its perfection, and the ugliness of religion is its human imperfection. I believe that Jefferson, as many before him and after him sought to do, was to separate the purity of devinity from the corruption of mankind. He noted the dismal state of Israel at the time of Christ's life and lived in a time still rocked by a more recent religious reformation that confirmed the imperfections of man's institutions, which ultimately aided in the formation of this nation.

I suspect that deists represented unfettered faith and purity in his mind while religion was repugnant to him being an imperfect a creation of man. Obviously he was filled with personal turmoil. He must have thought: how can one adopt the doctrine of Christ as perfection and yet reject Christ's self-proclaimed devinity? How can one recognize the inherent righteousness of religious freedom and yet be repulsed by its myriad flaws?

One thing is certain. Jefferson was a thinking man and he never feared rebuke. That's why he was great.


You can choose to believe what you want. According to his own writings Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

The teachings and moral of Jesus are not any less powerful if he was not divine. Jefferson saw that. That's why he created the Jefferson bible.

Christianity has far more to do with Paul than Jesus.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:17 pm

I am a devout Christian Believer but i understand, as the the founders understood, that a theocracy would be a complete disaster.

Faith and reason are two separate things but I don't believe that having both is paradoxical.

I can also understand how a deist might reject Christ as the Son. I do believe that God "speaks" to mankind through many faiths and philosophies. His toolbox is full.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:25 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
You can choose to believe what you want. According to his own writings Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

The teachings and moral of Jesus are not any less powerful if he was not divine. Jefferson saw that. That's why he created the Jefferson bible.

Christianity has far more to do with Paul than Jesus.


I was merely speculating. I am not challenging what Jefferson wrote but, being a thinking man, I am sure he questioned the perfection of Christ's philosophy against the "insanity" of His claim to be the Son of God. Would you take stock in the words of unpopular crazy men? Probably not, but then again, Jefferson was fearless that way.

No one really knows what is in the heart of men. People's beliefs can shift.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:43 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
I was merely speculating. I am not challenging what Jefferson wrote but, being a thinking man, I am sure he questioned the perfection of Christ's philosophy against the "insanity" of His claim to be the Son of God. Would you take stock in the words of unpopular crazy men? Probably not, but then again, Jefferson was fearless that way.

No one really knows what is in the heart of men. People's beliefs can shift.


I think the interesting question then starts to be since we know so little of the historical Jesus is it conceivable that the self proclaimed divinity was a later invention (of Paul and the authors of the gospels) rather than of the historical Jesus himself? We really don't know much and what we do know was passed down by people with an agenda.

Hypothetically, if Jesus was not divine to you still consider him important and worth following? I do.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:04 am

ErikLaurence wrote:I think the interesting question then starts to be since we know so little of the historical Jesus is it conceivable that the self proclaimed divinity was a later invention (of Paul and the authors of the gospels) rather than of the historical Jesus himself? We really don't know much and what we do know was passed down by people with an agenda.

Hypothetically, if Jesus was not divine to you still consider him important and worth following? I do.


Of course, He is my God, nonetheless.

The point I was making was that there is more than one path that leads men to God. As diverse as man's personalities, so will be their paths to faith. There are countless mono and polytheistic faiths. I don't believe any based in love are false paths.

For me, the Trinity is a misnomer; Not three Gods as a Unitarian would claim but rather One God, three forms. (I married a Unitarian in a Unitarian Church but I never felt the Trinity represented polytheism, few Christians would).

Some men are capable of highly reasoned and complex thoughts. Some are not. For reasoned strong men, the free thinking path leads them home. For impulsive weak men, the authoritarian path lets them find their way.

Consider the Catholic dogma and their focus on saints and Mary. I find all of it quite unnecessary but who am I to question their love of God? The dangers for men are in rejecting others faiths and beliefs.

Paul, in Corinthians, describes love in many ways. Surely God's love is limitless. Christ often compared the relationship between God and man as that between parent and child. When your five year old child brings home a portrait of you, how is it received?

I cannot help but believe that all faith leads to God.

Ultimately that Jefferson was a Christian or Deist doesn't matter. He was sympathetic to religion as well as faith. He knew that provisions for both were necessary obstacles in the search for human goodness. He expressed that in his work as a Founder.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:20 am

Deism is based on reason, not faith.

Faith only plays a part in the creation, and only insofar as there is evidence that there was a creation (the big bang). God created the rules, the universe was created, and now god is hands off.

There is no revelation. There is no personal god. God did not create man. A modern deist believes that god made the big bang and everything after that is pretty much cosmology, physics, and darwin.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:55 am

ErikLaurence wrote:Deism is based on reason, not faith.



Well.....there's a whole 'nuther can o' worms!

I'll have to discuss that one tomorrow.
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: PC 12-47E On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:51 am

Do you think Glen Beck and Fox News had a hand in the demise of Van Jones? :junmp: :jawdrop: :chop:
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:11 am

PC 12-47E wrote:Do you think Glen Beck and Fox News had a hand in the demise of Van Jones? :junmp: :jawdrop: :chop:


Van Jones played a hand in is own demise.

The best disinfectant is the light of day.

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow.


-John Lennon
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: PC 12-47E On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:45 am

[quote="Black_And_Blue"]

Van Jones played a hand in is own demise.

The best disinfectant is the light of day.



Van Jones flapped his gums too much and now have bitten him on the A$$. :D

Beck took aim with the spotlight..... But the mainstream media kept quiet....
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: spc On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:01 pm

There is a new term out, getting "Becked".
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Re: The schizophrenia of Glenn Beck

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:10 pm

Glenn Beck statement on resignation of Van Jones
September 6, 2009 - 18:38 ET

The American people stood up and demanded answers. Instead of providing them, the Administration had Jones resign under cover of darkness. I continue to be amazed by the power of everyday Americans to initiate change in our government through honest questioning, and judging by the other radicals in the administration, I expect that questioning to continue for the foreseeable future.
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