Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:38 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:The actions of the left do not go unnoticed by those who respect law and traditional cultural morality. Soon another culture, one that understands the benefit of a strong, moralistic and procreative society, will use your own reasoning against you in your own land. And no, I don't mean Christians or Deists.


That was the excuse of the Taliban.


You call it an excuse, they call it their culture.

More realistically, Islam will dominate the western world because people like you reject your own culture.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:41 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:The fact is that the intent of the constitution is to limit the rights of government, that's it, nothing more, nothing less. It's not about protecting your culture, or your traditions, or your dogma. It exists solely to limit the powers of government. The right and the left are both trying to use the constitution to limit the rights of citizens.


The point of government is to protect a society, ostensibly one of a particular culture.
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:52 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
I already told you that you used the umbrella of religion to hide desired "new" social behaviors as sacrements of that religion. It has been tried and rejected by the courts such as tax avoidance and marijuana smoking, now homosexual marriage.

Your entire argument is silly because the Constitution protects marriage civilly within the state's rights.

How many times do I have to explain this to you?


You don't get to decide what other religions consider sacrament.

You do understand that religious freedom applies to religions besides yours?

During prohibition wine was permitted to be sold to the catholic clergy for sacramental purposes.

The supreme court recently (under Roberts) upheld the rights of churches to use tea with a schedule 1 substance in it.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:15 pm

Erik, just so you know, I think you are an incredibly intelligent person. I am impressed with your knowledge and recall. You have a fine technical mind and are learned in philosophy as well.

My issue with you and the left is that you have taken the best of the philosophies of the world and ignored the realities of them. Philosophy must recognize that our existence has but one secular purpose and that is survival. If we become so "enlightened" as to understand that our existence is merely circumstantial, then narcissism will prevail and our survival is without meaning. Such enlightenment leads to extinction. Thus, those who hold those beliefs are not only suicidal but homicidal.

Cultures would be well advised, despite their faults, to stay their course if they wish to survive. I doubt that millenia of practice in the art of survival was wasted. Technology has brought to most men the ability to acquire more information than ever. The problem is that men think as well, or as poorly as they ever did. They are in control of their emotions, or not, in the same way as in Nero's time.

Today's ability to feed and manipulate information is formidable. In another thread, the discussion of the prevalence of video surveillance and the resulting loss of privacy is disturbing us all. Why would that disturb a perfect society? In a perfect society, all of our actions are perfect and in harmony with others? What have we to hide? The reality is we want to hide our dark sides.

Individuals and cultures have dark sides which we do not want to face. We run and hide it from the rest of society. This is observed by many but especially those who wish to change it. By putting the dark into the light the anxiety of shame can be avoided. This is fine until problems of survival arise and judgments begin.

Early cultures dealt with the problem of dark behavior through social pressure, law and religion. Such dark behavior was shunned, punished and avoided. Or, those practicing the dark behavior were clandestine in their actions. A balance was thus achieved.

In our world where communication is ubiquitous, those who are made to feel uncomfortable by society for their behavior have been able to flock together and exploit the sympathy of society by telling of their oppression by social rules. The balance is upset. The foundations of culture and society are uprooted by this challenge and the institutions that set up the rules have forgotten why. Survival is the answer and it is taken for granted by a weak culture.

We should all be asking the question: What will happen when the plan of nature is subjugate by man's technology?
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:20 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:You don't get to decide what other religions consider sacrament.

You do understand that religious freedom applies to religions besides yours?

During prohibition wine was permitted to be sold to the catholic clergy for sacramental purposes.

The supreme court recently (under Roberts) upheld the rights of churches to use tea with a schedule 1 substance in it.



No, Erik, society must decide what constitutes religion and sacrament. Our Founders did. The problem is that they didn't define religion because they assumed everyone knew what it was. Now you make another technical argument to serve your shallow ends at the expense of all others who thought they were protected by the Constitution.

Have the courage to debate this in public with a Constitutional change. Our Founding Fathers knew there would be a need to change the Constitution but we haven't exercised it in years because technology allows intelligent people to usurp the rights and dignities of the people.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:59 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Individuals and cultures have dark sides which we do not want to face. We run and hide it from the rest of society. This is observed by many but especially those who wish to change it. By putting the dark into the light the anxiety of shame can be avoided. This is fine until problems of survival arise and judgments begin.

Early cultures dealt with the problem of dark behavior through social pressure, law and religion. Such dark behavior was shunned, punished and avoided. Or, those practicing the dark behavior were clandestine in their actions. A balance was thus achieved.


The definition of "dark behavior" is not static. There was a time when Christianity was the "dark behavior" that was shunned, punished, and avoided.

The thing that makes the United States different from every other nation in history is that is based on a very simple common set of ideas outlined in the Declaration of Independence, not a common religion, culture, or ancestry. The United States is a pact amongst people that we all agree with the ideas of Jefferson and Locke about the rights of man.

The Constitution does not give us rights. It limits the power of Government to infringe on our rights. In "Rights of Man" Thomas Paine wrote:

It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect — that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few. ... They...consequently are instruments of injustice.

The fact therefore must be that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a contract with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:12 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:

No, Erik, society must decide what constitutes religion and sacrament. Our Founders did. The problem is that they didn't define religion because they assumed everyone knew what it was. Now you make another technical argument to serve your shallow ends at the expense of all others who thought they were protected by the Constitution.

Have the courage to debate this in public with a Constitutional change. Our Founding Fathers knew there would be a need to change the Constitution but we haven't exercised it in years because technology allows intelligent people to usurp the rights and dignities of the people.


Rights are inherent in the individual, not in the society. That is what the age of enlightenment was all about.

Jefferson overtly did NOT want to define religion.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:30 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:The definition of "dark behavior" is not static. There was a time when Christianity was the "dark behavior" that was shunned, punished, and avoided.


Nor is the Constitution which is why rather than gnawing wormholes in it to suit your purposes, let the people decide to change it. The founders laid out the procedures for it. Why can't you follow them rather than disgrace it?

ErikLaurence wrote:The thing that makes the United States different from every other nation in history is that is based on a very simple common set of ideas outlined in the Declaration of Independence, not a common religion, culture, or ancestry. The United States is a pact amongst people that we all agree with the ideas of Jefferson and Locke about the rights of man.

The Constitution does not give us rights. It limits the power of Government to infringe on our rights. In "Rights of Man" Thomas Paine wrote:

It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect — that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few. ... They...consequently are instruments of injustice.

The fact therefore must be that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a contract with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.


The Bill of Rights does indeed give us rights. In the sense of a contract for a government, those who seek to interpret the Constitution in novel ways that strain reason instead of through due process as the Founders intended, breach that contract.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:44 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:The definition of "dark behavior" is not static. There was a time when Christianity was the "dark behavior" that was shunned, punished, and avoided.


Nor is the Constitution which is why rather than gnawing wormholes in it to suit your purposes, let the people decide to change it. The founders laid out the procedures for it. Why can't you follow them rather than disgrace it?


So you are saying a certain subset of the population has to amend the Constitution to guarantee the rights that the rest of us already have.

You mean something like the 14th amendment?

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:48 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:Rights are inherent in the individual, not in the society. That is what the age of enlightenment was all about.

Jefferson overtly did NOT want to define religion.


If the Founders used the word "religion" in the Constitution then they knew what it meant. Only now is a definition required to avoid a defilement of the Constitution by equivocators. Religions are dynamic organizations but none then would have been so bold as to counter scripture to endorse sin or behavior that is against cultural morality. But that is what has happened over the last 50 years or so. It isn't happening as a result of religious enlightenment. It is happening as a result of political pressure enabled by technology. Technology has lent itself to an inequality in speech. The poor man is losing his dignity as a result of an errant leadership. Religious institutions are not impervious to sin. Man is creating god in his own image.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:49 pm

mikeandgerry wrote: Man is creating god in his own image.


He always has.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:55 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:If the Founders used the word "religion" in the Constitution then they knew what it meant.


In his autobiography Thomas Jefferson contradicts your assertion. Once again I quote:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
ErikLaurence
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Reading Lehigh
Stove/Furnace Model: LL Hyfire II w/heat jacket

Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:11 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:The definition of "dark behavior" is not static. There was a time when Christianity was the "dark behavior" that was shunned, punished, and avoided.


Nor is the Constitution which is why rather than gnawing wormholes in it to suit your purposes, let the people decide to change it. The founders laid out the procedures for it. Why can't you follow them rather than disgrace it?


So you are saying a certain subset of the population has to amend the Constitution to guarantee the rights that the rest of us already have.

You mean something like the 14th amendment?

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


There is no Constitutional right to marriage, let alone gay marriage. There is no prohibition in the Constitution prohibiting gays from marriage, nor man and beast, nor man and inanimate object. It is a state issue. Similarly, those behaviors may also be legislated against by the states.

Community standards apply in a non-uniform manner. Your interpretation of the 14th amendment would nullify dry counties, laws protecting minors, etc.

Let it be a state issue. It is not the jurisdiction of the Federal government to decide on gay marriage.

It is not an issue of religious freedom. You chose to argue the point that because religions choose to sanction gay marriage that the federal government must do so on the civil side. Not so. That is a blunder that exposes your disingenous political strategy of support for religious freedom only when it aids you in your social aims.

Respect the Constitution.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:13 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:If the Founders used the word "religion" in the Constitution then they knew what it meant.


In his autobiography Thomas Jefferson contradicts your assertion. Once again I quote:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom



So you are saying that when the founders wrote the first amendment they didn't know what "religion" meant. You are being absurd.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Our Founding Fathers on Christianity

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:24 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
Community standards apply in a non-uniform manner. Your interpretation of the 14th amendment would nullify dry counties, laws protecting minors, etc.



You are confusing full faith and credit with the equal protection.

If I am 14 years 3 months old I can get a drivers license in South Dakota. It is valid in the other 49 states, even the states where the driving age is 17. That's full faith and credit (article iv section 1), not the 14th amendment.

The 14th amendment means the laws protect all citizens equally. Separate but equal was declared unconstitutional with brown vs board of education.

I find it amusing that a self declared conservative is promoting a position that lessens individual liberty.

For someone who tells people to respect the Constitution you seem horribly undereducated as to what it actually says.
ErikLaurence
 
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