Did I get shorted on delivery?

Did I get shorted on delivery?

PostBy: BurninCoalInRI On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:16 am

How consistent is rice coal in cubic feet per ton?

Reason for asking is I bought 4 tons delivered last year and it went into a plywood box 4'x8' x 6' high and I calculated the height it should come to, and it fell short by like 6 inches!

Here is one site that shows a 4'x8'x4' high bin holds 3.2 tons and if you do the math, 4/3.2*4 it comes to 5' high in that bin for 4 tons. The site also says rice coal takes more space than larger sizes.

The cubic feet per ton is consistent with other resources I've found at 40cu ft per ton.



Bottom line, did I get screwed? There is always small claims court...
BurninCoalInRI
 

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:49 am

Where you found that chart is my site too. :) As it mentions those are approximate values and are based on my experience, you won't find any "official" values anywhere. Someone else posted some volumes slightly lower than the 40 cubic feet per ton in another thread a short time ago. Bear in mind the coal itself can affect the volume.... Also make sure you are taking the *inside* dimensions of the bin. A 2x4 wall with plywood on the inside all the way around on a 4x4x8 bin will take up about 1/2 ton.

If you are really concerned about it weigh how much coal you can get in 5 gallon bucket (or whatever you are using) assuming you are using buckets to move it from the bin to the stove, be sure to subtract the weight of the bucket and get an average over a few full pails. If possible weigh it on a few different scales to make sure your scale isn't off. A few pounds will create a huge + or - over hundreds of buckets. If memory serves me correctly it should be around 35 pounds. Mark down how many buckets you get out of it... add them up at the end of the season.

This is in no way an official weight but it should be fairly close, if it's off significantly like more than a 1/4 of a ton then I would consider not buying coal from the same dealer.

As far as taking them to court I would suggest there really isn't anything you can do. There is no way for you to prove it short of having it delivered, removed, and weighed with witnesses present. They could simply argue that it was you that removed the bulk that is missing and I wouldn't doubt that any magistrate or judge would accept that argument.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

PostBy: barley master On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:16 am

not to mention water weight from the coal from washing and loading unless its from a stock pile which then the water will run off and be much less.

our specs at work for water is as folows

buckwheat #2 rice 4% water allowance per ton
buckwheat #3 barley 5% water allowance per ton.

now for us recieving a shipment of 50000 lbs minus the the 5% (2500) leave us with a adjusted net wt. of 47500 lbs delivered.

using the same equation for your delivery 8000 lbs. water weight would have been 320 lbs. which comes out to (i use 40 lbs per bucket) 8 buckets. doesnt sound like much but lay it out and see how much space it consumes. i sure would like the 8 buckets its a weeks burn.

to counter any mistakes at the scale we have our deliveries check weighed by a different weigh station that is approved by weights and measures. we then make payment of the lower of the two weights. the check weighing ticket is on average 5% lower thus removing the water weight.

be aware there is a difference from scale to scale and the person operating the scale.
barley master
 


PostBy: BurninCoalInRI On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:35 am

thanks for the replies... you know, i just have a gut feeling and his attitude didnt help. but anyway, i will buy my next load in summer and from somebody else.

at approx $200/ton (thats what this was, and i bought it last year), i've got to be careful.

also, maybe the summer price will be a little less?
BurninCoalInRI
 

PostBy: BurninCoalInRI On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:58 am

thats a great site!

also, i want to say i've been burning coal off and on since the early eithties whan i was in my early 20's and someone gave me a white atlanta coal stove which kept me very warm. all my friends were also young adults and struggling with heating bills, so my place was quite popular with its 80 degree temps!

ten years ago when we bought our house, i was tired of te wood stove going out by morning, bought a $50 chubby and a couple bags of nut coal, and was warm. somehow, a year or so later we went back to wood, - rpobably the dust from shaking and ash removal - then last year i discovered the stoker technology and bought the harman used, never hooked it up.

this think has only been on since saturday, but its almost like oil heat with the thermostat.

i only hope that anthracite stays low in cost as the popularity increases.

so far so good. your site was in my coal favorites since that time.

NEPAForum Admin wrote:Where you found that chart is my site too. :) As it mentions those are approximate values and are based on my experience, you won't find any "official" values anywhere. Someone else posted some volumes slightly lower than the 40 cubic feet per ton in another thread a short time ago. Bear in mind the coal itself can affect the volume.... Also make sure you are taking the *inside* dimensions of the bin. A 2x4 wall with plywood on the inside all the way around on a 4x4x8 bin will take up about 1/2 ton.

If you are really concerned about it weigh how much coal you can get in 5 gallon bucket (or whatever you are using) assuming you are using buckets to move it from the bin to the stove, be sure to subtract the weight of the bucket and get an average over a few full pails. If possible weigh it on a few different scales to make sure your scale isn't off. A few pounds will create a huge + or - over hundreds of buckets. If memory serves me correctly it should be around 35 pounds. Mark down how many buckets you get out of it... add them up at the end of the season.

This is in no way an official weight but it should be fairly close, if it's off significantly like more than a 1/4 of a ton then I would consider not buying coal from the same dealer.

As far as taking them to court I would suggest there really isn't anything you can do. There is no way for you to prove it short of having it delivered, removed, and weighed with witnesses present. They could simply argue that it was you that removed the bulk that is missing and I wouldn't doubt that any magistrate or judge would accept that argument.
BurninCoalInRI
 

PostBy: George-NJ On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:58 pm

I hate to say it, but there are thieves in every kind of business.

I have an uncle who years ago used to drive a tractor trailer oil tanker, he delivered heating oil for large buildings in the city. I went with him one day to see what the job was like, I know he made alot of money... That day I saw how. The meter was rigged so that after one compartment pumped dry, the meter would keep ticking at the air being pumped thru it w/out the oil. After three or four shorted delveries, he ended up with about 300 surplus gallons of oil in his trailer, for which he had his own customers for. This was about twenty years ago, today that booty would be about $600 a day ontop of his then $23 an hour...

Needles to say, I didn't go into that business, nor do I trust many people in that situation. It's too easy to skim, and coal has no meter. Let's say a driver lives or knows people not far from where he picks up his bulk coal, it gets weighed on his way out and then he's on the road. He can stop by his or a friends house and drop a little of your coal there, not enough for you to notice, but day in and day out he's got quite a pile there to use or sell.

Welcome to my cynical world *grin*
George-NJ
 

PostBy: BurninCoalInRI On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:08 pm

you know, i have a reverse story about that. back in the early eighties when i started with coal, i picked it up with my ranger pickup (with extra leafs in the back springs).

i put an ad in the paper charging $20 for delivery for 1/4 or 1/2 or 1 ton shoveled (!) into their coal bin. it was good excercise, and i made a few bucks to boot. invariably, they dumped it into my truck with a payloader, and it went over like 80lbs, which they ignored.

i would stop off at home and scoop out JUST THE OVERAGE. that was my heat!

i also met a lot of nice coal customers, it seems coal people are nice. i couldnt imagine shorting them.
BurninCoalInRI
 

PostBy: barley master On: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:42 pm

there are two reasons why i haul my own coal in my own truck. one i get to keep the delivery charge and two i know how much weight i can put into my truck. which up to the side rails and level is 11/2 tons. im too cheap to pay the delivery cost the down side is i have to scoop it off :twisted:

i had to change my source some years ago. i had them load my truck from a stock pile. when he told me what the $$ amount was i looked at my truck and looked at him and said i just got screwed because i know what my truck is capable of holding. it was real good stuff but i never went back.

if the delivery charge was still 3.50 ton when i worked a high lift then i would have it all delivered all the time. and i only got 50 cents a ton for being the helper.
barley master
 

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:02 am

George-NJ wrote: Let's say a driver lives or knows people not far from where he picks up his bulk coal, it gets weighed on his way out and then he's on the road. He can stop by his or a friends house and drop a little of your coal there, not enough for you to notice, but day in and day out he's got quite a pile there to use or sell.


That's true but if a company continues in a practice like that they all eventually get caught, word of mouth is a strong thing. I've made many deliveries where the load came no where even close to fitting into the bin some as much as 2 ton on on 5 ton delivery...

They all get caught eventually and word spreads pretty fast especially in the areas I'm delivering since most of them are rural. That is something you definitely don't want hanging over your head... To my recollection in the 15 years plus that I've been doing this the weight was questioned once, after inspection by a the weights and measures it was determined by them to be short a few hundred pounds over a 5 ton delivery, this was done strictly by measuring. My Uncle the owner at the time paid the guy the few bucks just to avoid the hassle. I on the other hand will fight any such nonsense, that few bucks cost us a few customers as well.

Anyhow find yourself a reliable dealer, they are out there. Don't go by price alone... a lot of times the lower price isn't necessarily the better deal. :)
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

PostBy: BurninCoalInRI On: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:08 am

thanks for the info... hey roughly how much is a ton of rice coal this year, on average? i know its "cheapa in nepa", but i havent asked here in RI and last year it was about $200 bulk, delivered...
BurninCoalInRI
 

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:28 am

BurninCoalInRI wrote:thanks for the info... hey roughly how much is a ton of rice coal this year, on average? i know its "cheapa in nepa", but i havent asked here in RI and last year it was about $200 bulk, delivered...

$200 delivered in RI. I'd say that's cheap. I'm paying that to pick it up in CT. How is the coal?
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

PostBy: BurninCoalInRI On: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:02 am

that was last years price (when i bought it), and actually, im still using the 750# of bagged coal i got with the stove, no idea where that came from.
BurninCoalInRI
 

PostBy: LsFarm On: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:33 pm

Here is the thread all about coal prices. They vary wildly from region to region, time of year etc.


http://nepacrossroads.com/viewtopic.php?t=793

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland