The Decline And Fall Of The United States

Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:12 pm

I'd say the takeover by the corporatists is "Mission Accomplished"

I don't know if I agree with you Mike on the role of the Fed.

Congress has almost NO power over the money supply. The agreement is that Congress will keep borrowing the money from the Fed, and the Fed will do it's best to keep getting these guys elected.

The way a Congressperson gets reelected is bringing home the bacon for the voters.

Again, if the money isn't printed, then all the pork projects don't exist.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:48 am

I think the whole problem starts with us the voter & consumer. Just think about this time of year when a lot of us were young, things like Christmas presents were bought on lay-a-way back in july, there weren`t many if any thing that was bought with no money down people got to the point of buying everything with plastic that the crap finally hit the fan for most at the same time. The easy payment plan became too hard, working for & saving towards what you wanted became unheard of we became a nation of wants with instant gradification, we didn`t have to wait for anything just slide that piece of plastic thru the slot & worry about it later & the Gov. was doing the same.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:32 am

But the gov was doing it on a scale we cannot imagine. And you are ultimately responsible for your debt. The gov. is not. Once again, you are responsible for the gov. debt. They are making me responsible for money I did not spend but some would say I get the benefits of the spending. Those same people think they know what is best for us all. The creep to Socialism.

Kevin
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:40 am

Right you are Kevin but as you see in my first line it is us the voter that continually put these same big spenders in office. They can`t do it on their own. We went from a creditor nation to a debtor nation in the 80s & but for a fleeting moment as someone put it we`ve never changed direction.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:45 am

I agree, but I would go further back than the 80's. They get put back in because they "bring home the bacon" to a constituancy that is increasingly dependent on the gov. It is a snowball effect. ANd the more illegals that come in the more support they get along with the more prolific breeding cycle of the disadvantaged. They will break the system and we will see what develops after that.

Kevin
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:44 pm

jpete wrote:I'd say the takeover by the corporatists is "Mission Accomplished"

I don't know if I agree with you Mike on the role of the Fed.

Congress has almost NO power over the money supply. The agreement is that Congress will keep borrowing the money from the Fed, and the Fed will do it's best to keep getting these guys elected.

The way a Congressperson gets reelected is bringing home the bacon for the voters.

Again, if the money isn't printed, then all the pork projects don't exist.


You are absolutely correct except that congress retains much influence over the money supply through the mechanism you mentioned--monetizing the debt.

I am making the additional point that though the Fed was intended to be private and disconnected from congress as far as monetary policy is concerned, the government retains much influence as we witnessed in the recent months. Private banking is a constitutional franchise. Money creation and management is the constitutional role of the government despite contracting it out to the fed. The government never ceded all monetary power to the private bankers. Bernanke knows his place and his role is to serve the government first.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:49 pm

KLook wrote:I agree, but I would go further back than the 80's. They get put back in because they "bring home the bacon" to a constituancy that is increasingly dependent on the gov. It is a snowball effect. ANd the more illegals that come in the more support they get along with the more prolific breeding cycle of the disadvantaged. They will break the system and we will see what develops after that.

Kevin


You are right. It goes back 100 years. Creation of the Fed and the personal income tax amendment, and later, big fiscal policy/ deficit spending habits from the depression and WWII.

There will be no fix until it is broken. Of that I am sure.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:13 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
jpete wrote:I'd say the takeover by the corporatists is "Mission Accomplished"

I don't know if I agree with you Mike on the role of the Fed.

Congress has almost NO power over the money supply. The agreement is that Congress will keep borrowing the money from the Fed, and the Fed will do it's best to keep getting these guys elected.

The way a Congressperson gets reelected is bringing home the bacon for the voters.

Again, if the money isn't printed, then all the pork projects don't exist.


You are absolutely correct except that congress retains much influence over the money supply through the mechanism you mentioned--monetizing the debt.

I am making the additional point that though the Fed was intended to be private and disconnected from congress as far as monetary policy is concerned, the government retains much influence as we witnessed in the recent months. Private banking is a constitutional franchise. Money creation and management is the constitutional role of the government despite contracting it out to the fed. The government never ceded all monetary power to the private bankers. Bernanke knows his place and his role is to serve the government first.


At best it is a symbiotic relationship.

Once Congress anoints the Fed chief, they are locked out meetings and as we have seen recently, getting them to open their books is a monumental task.

The Treasury sells bonds and uses them to get a loan from the Fed. Nothing say the Fed HAS to make the loan. It's just in their best interest to keep the politicians happy and the money rolling in.

Jackson broke the Second Bank of the United States. Congress could easily do the same thing. But they won't because shaking up the monetary system is probably suicidal.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:43 pm

jpete wrote:At best it is a symbiotic relationship.

Once Congress anoints the Fed chief, they are locked out meetings and as we have seen recently, getting them to open their books is a monumental task.

The Treasury sells bonds and uses them to get a loan from the Fed. Nothing say the Fed HAS to make the loan. It's just in their best interest to keep the politicians happy and the money rolling in.

Jackson broke the Second Bank of the United States. Congress could easily do the same thing. But they won't because shaking up the monetary system is probably suicidal.


Yes, it is a symbiotic relationship. That's bascially what I am saying. Both parties have goals and the path to their achievement is beneficial to both. One won't sell out the other. One cannot sellout the other without hurting itself.

The problem is that the government, as you stated earlier, has the propensity to do more damage to the people through their deficit spending/fiscal policy and subsequent debt monetization. The net effect is the same as a monetary policy that devalues the dollar. The people's money gets destroyed in the long run. Under easy money, investment is stimulated, consumer goods are cheaper but static wealth is hard to hold on to over time. Thus, the power of the government and corporations cannot be challenged by static wealth (old unproductive money). It's a tyranny of the government and the corporation that checks the tyranny of the elite and the private wealthy.

The common people lose their simple entrepreneurial opportunities. They don't often have the education or resources to combat the inflation effects caused in this monetary war.
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Re: The Decline And Fall Of The United States

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:27 pm

Yet the truly rich/wealthy have many ways to diversify their wealth and come out the other end just fine. If they survive the revolution. But they have the resources to survive better also.

Kevin
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