Obama blinks

Obama blinks

PostBy: coalkirk On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:04 pm

So the Commander in Chief has cancelled promised missle defense shields that were to be placed in Poland and the Czech Republic, two of our staunch allies. In doing so he's bowing to Putin and we got nothing in return. From my perspective, this makes us look weak and screws our alllies. I'm sure Erik will be able to spin this somehow so it's the best thing since sliced bread. :roll:
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:05 pm

I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: coalkirk On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:17 pm

Well that didn't take long.
ErikLaurence wrote:I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.


Maybe they should but you just don't cave to Russias demands without getting something in return. That's called being a chump.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:24 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.

It has nothing to do with Europe's defense, the plan was to protect the US from long range missiles launched from Iran. If you look at a globe, you will see that Poland and the Check Republic are directly in line with the US for missiles launched from Iran. The fact that it will protect Europe against shorter range missiles is an added bonus, not the reason for them in the first place.

It is a missile defense system based in Europe, not a European defense system. The media tends to forget actual facts when they want to sway opinion, the practice worked rather well in this instance.

I don't think he can blink, one would have to have his eyes open to do that.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:32 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.


I hate to make assumptions but here goes. By your repeated stands against previous defense spending I would come to the conclusion that you have never served in the military. I say this because you seem incapable of looking at the wider picture in defense matters. It's very easy to just get a glance at the cost and say "let them do it themselves." Let me education you, we live in a dangerous world where the battle front is crossed in seconds. Putting the missile defense in Eastern Europe was not for the exclusive benefit of those countries. That was just a positive side benefit. It was a powerful tool that kept this country safer by creating a buffer between us and the bad guys. Make no mistake about it, our little piece of heaven is much less safe on account of this decision. Lisa
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:39 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.

It has nothing to do with Europe's defense, the plan was to protect the US from long range missiles launched from Iran. If you look at a globe, you will see that Poland and the Check Republic are directly in line with the US for missiles launched from Iran. The fact that it will protect Europe against shorter range missiles is an added bonus, not the reason for them in the first place.

It is a missile defense system based in Europe, not a European defense system. The media tends to forget actual facts when they want to sway opinion, the practice worked rather well in this instance.

I don't think he can blink, one would have to have his eyes open to do that.


The fact that they're in Poland has everything to do with Euro defense.

The missiles in Poland are being replaced with ship based ABMs. There are two big advantages to ship based ABMs.

1 The can be based much closer to the missile launch sites. This allows them to intercept while the missile is still in early boost phase, prior to decoys be deployed. This means you've got an iceberg's chance in hell of actually intercepting something.

2 You can reposition them based on changing strategic considerations. Missiles in Poland do no good if the Chinese or the North Koreans start making noise. Ship based missiles can move.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:44 pm

lowfog01 wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.


I hate to make assumptions but here goes. By your repeated stands against previous defense spending I would come to the conclusion that you have never served in the military. I say this because you seem incapable of looking at the wider picture in defense matters. It's very easy to just get a glance at the cost and say "let them do it themselves." Let me education you, we live in a dangerous world where the battle front is crossed in seconds. Putting the missile defense in Eastern Europe was not for the exclusive benefit of those countries. That was just a positive side benefit. It was a powerful tool that kept this country safer by creating a buffer between us and the bad guys. Make no mistake about it, our little piece of heaven is much less safe on account of this decision. Lisa


The closer the ABM systems are to the launch pads the better the chance are you actually intercept something.

My guess is the engineering reasons for this are beyond you.

We are not trashing missile defense. We are exchanging ground based missile defense for ship based missile defense.

After I graduated from MIT I spend several years working for General Dynamics.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:55 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
lowfog01 wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:I think the Euros should pay for their own defense.




After I graduated from MIT I spend several years working for General Dynamics.


So what? Are you bragging or complaining? It must make you feel really good to smack down the stupid people that dare to challenge your MIT background. Guess what - you don't impress me. I've met too many people just like you with all the books smarts and none of the street smarts to actually accomplish anything. I know that this country was safer with the missile defense in place in Eastern Europe and getting the shipped base system into position is going to take time we won't have. I hope I'm wrong about this but it doesn't look good for the home team. Lisa
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:09 pm

lowfog01 wrote:
So what? Are you bragging or complaining? It must make you feel really good to smack down the stupid people that dare to challenge your MIT background. Guess what - you don't impress me. I've met too many people just like you with all the books smarts and none of the street smarts to actually accomplish anything. I know that this country was safer with the missile defense in place in Eastern Europe and getting the shipped base system into position is going to take time we won't have. I hope I'm wrong about this but it doesn't look good for the home team. Lisa


I will ignore the ad hominem attack except to say I retired at 35 after selling my company so I guess I have more than "book learning" and it seems I can accomplish something.

Iran does not have intercontinental missiles.

Iran does not have nuclear weapons.

Once iran actually does have nukes they will be years away from engineering a device that can be mated with a long range missile. Making nukes is easy. Making nukes small, light, and durable enough to be mated with a long range missile will be years and years after that.

SM-3 will be deployed on ships long before Iran has long range nukes.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:21 pm

AP NewsBreak: Nuke agency says Iran can make bomb

Sep 17 01:23 PM US/Eastern
VIENNA (AP) - Experts at the world's top atomic watchdog are in agreement that Tehran has the ability to make a nuclear bomb and is on the way to developing a missile system able to carry an atomic warhead, according to a secret report seen by The Associated Press.

The document drafted by senior officials at the International Atomic Energy Agency is the clearest indication yet that the agency's leaders share Washington's views on Iran's weapon-making capabilities.

It appears to be the so-called "secret annex" on Iran's nuclear program that Washington says is being withheld by the IAEA's chief.

The document says Iran has "sufficient information" to build a bomb. It says Iran is likely to "overcome problems" on developing a delivery system.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: tsb On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:26 pm

Iran can't even make gasoline. Maybe they'll blow themselves up.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:33 pm

Black_And_Blue wrote:AP NewsBreak: Nuke agency says Iran can make bomb

Sep 17 01:23 PM US/Eastern
VIENNA (AP) - Experts at the world's top atomic watchdog are in agreement that Tehran has the ability to make a nuclear bomb and is on the way to developing a missile system able to carry an atomic warhead, according to a secret report seen by The Associated Press.

The document drafted by senior officials at the International Atomic Energy Agency is the clearest indication yet that the agency's leaders share Washington's views on Iran's weapon-making capabilities.

It appears to be the so-called "secret annex" on Iran's nuclear program that Washington says is being withheld by the IAEA's chief.

The document says Iran has "sufficient information" to build a bomb. It says Iran is likely to "overcome problems" on developing a delivery system.


Building a bomb is easy (especially a U235 bomb).

Building a bomb within the throw weight characteristics of a long range missile is very hard.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:41 pm

The ABM system has been discussed ad nauseam in another thread. For my posting on the technical possibilities of any ABM system see: The Enemy

The decision to cancel any system in Poland likely recognizes these technical realities and as forum member ErikLaurence points out replacing them with ship base systems that are closer makes the hostile missile launch easier to detect. Still very difficult though.
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: plumb-r On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:24 pm

What the heck with all the money thats being thrown around why not do both? Of course I'm only kidding. I think not putting them in Poland is like throwing our allies under the bus,we should not bail on them!
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Re: Obama blinks

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:46 pm

The best defense is preventing these lunatics from making a bomb in the first place. Once produced, the method of delivery itself may be as simple as a truck, boat or plane.
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