Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:57 am

SMITTY wrote:
That's funny...... from the dawn of the industrial revolution until about 1973 there was not one ridiculous environmental regulation on ANYTHING.


And we pretty nearly destroyed the rivers of New England in that time frame.

There's a happy medium to be had here. Basically, don't sh_t where you eat.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:07 am

Science isn`t left or right, it is influenced by politics(lobbying) but it is based on facts. Free enterprise just about wiped out all the fish in the great lakes just for their eggs. These sportsmen turned businessmen weren`t smart enough to know that when the fish are gone so is their business. If things were left up to the early timber industry we wouldn`t have any trees left. So what some will say, just think of how many more would be heating their homes with coal & what the price would be.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:08 am

ErikLaurence wrote:And we pretty nearly destroyed the rivers of New England in that time frame.........


But they are all back to normal now. So we DIDN'T destroy ANYTHING. Take Boston harbor for example: 300 years of use as a septic tank & now you can actually see bottom 6 feet deep. Nothing was destroyed. Mother nature will correct any "DAMAGE" .
SMITTY
 
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:28 am

SMITTY wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:And we pretty nearly destroyed the rivers of New England in that time frame.........


But they are all back to normal now. So we DIDN'T destroy ANYTHING. Take Boston harbor for example: 300 years of use as a septic tank & now you can actually see bottom 6 feet deep. Nothing was destroyed. Mother nature will correct any "DAMAGE" .


First of all, no they're not back to normal. The Androscoggin and the Kennebec are much better that they were 40 years ago, but they're hardly "back to normal".

Second of all, yes, nature will correct much damage, but only if we stop making it worse.

Finally, would you go down to the Esplanade in Boston and drink the water from the Charles?
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:09 am

Don`t know anything about Boston harbor but I can guess, its probably much like the Monogahela river in Pittsburgh, it looks better now & there are fish but I wouldn`t eat them. If you were to stir up the bottom there are all kinds of heavy metals & who knows what else. Mother nature had an aweful lot of help, even before the mills shut down they were forced to clean up their act & quit dumping into them & most of the acid runoff from coal mines was contained. I know that the river near Cleveland actually caught fire once, it wasn`t mother nature alone that cleaned that one up either.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:28 am

samhill wrote:Science isn`t left or right, it is influenced by politics(lobbying) but it is based on facts.


I tend to disagree with that. The environmentalist and those supporting such legislation have the moral high ground. I'd suggest reading that piece on Ed Krug. The government did 10 year study that cost more than half a billion dollars. The conclusions became accepted among most scientists........ yet they still passed the legislation and apparently the career of one scientist was destroyed. Even with scientific support the politics of science still won.

Anybody that sticks their neck out is labeled industry shill, denier, whacko or anyone of numerous other derogatory names.

ACID TEST by William Anderson Published in Reason Magazine, January 1992
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:07 am

ErikLaurence wrote:First of all, no they're not back to normal. The Androscoggin and the Kennebec are much better that they were 40 years ago, but they're hardly "back to normal".

Second of all, yes, nature will correct much damage, but only if we stop making it worse.

Finally, would you go down to the Esplanade in Boston and drink the water from the Charles?

If fish and other life forms are swimming & living in the water, it's not destroyed. If it were, they'd be washing up on shore dead. Things aren't as bad as environmentalists would have you believe. That said, most people I know, myself included, wouldn't drink water or eat fish from ANY MA lake. But our grand parents & great grandparents did at a time WITHOUT ONE SHRED of environmental regulation. My grandmother is going to turn 90 next July & she walks over a mile every day. She'd still be walking to get her groceries - AND carrying them BACK- if a medical procedure didn't cause her to lose most of her sight in one eye (doctors blamed macular degeneration -- seems funny she was fine for 89 years before the operation). The medical system has cause her more damage than anything in the environment has.

I will never be convinced by environmental hype. After all that my ancestors have done, according to environmentalists I should have 6 legs..... if I even survived. That right there is proof positive that it is just HYPE and nothing more. Richard's link he posted backs that up 200%.

Besides, I wouldn't go to Boston if I were paid! :D
SMITTY
 
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:37 pm

I don`t know what effect acid rain had on soil but I know it played heck on my cars paint. Like most everything else not many once they have reached a conclusion either by themselves or with the help of others are willing to admit that just possibly they may have been incorrect. It also seems that there are as many so called experts in any given field in favor of one way of thinking as there are so called experts against it. Human nature I guess but when it costs billions it sure would be nice if they would get one right every now & then.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: tvb On: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:17 pm

You think enviromental regulations are bad?
Here's the alternative:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CBYQ9QEwAw
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:19 pm

I know that back in the late 40s in a couple of towns along the mon. river, Charleroi & Donora I believe the pollution got so bad that the towns were evacuated & 20 or so people actually died. I don`t think any of those people would mind a few air quality regulations.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:00 am

the pollution in donora, pa was due to low stacks, steep valleys and an atmospheric inversion trapping the products of combustion for days in the town heavily populated with steel and zinc producers. even then, if you look into it, it wasn't so much the heavy coalsmoke that caused the deaths but the extremely high concentration of metal fume, especially zinc fume that severely irritated the respritory system in certain individuals - esp. the elderly and sick.
ah... tvb, finally, the straw-man argument, nice.
sam, btw, what, exactly, did "acid rain" do to the finish on your vehicle, and what is your basis for the assumption that the cause of poor or deteriorating finish was the "acid rain" vs. one or a combination of dozens of other more likely and much more probable factors?
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:23 am

Spend some time in eastern europe or the former soviet union if you want to see the results of unchecked industrialism on the environment.

I was doing some hiking on the czech/polish border a few summers ago, there's a dead spruce forest there killed by acid rain.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:46 am

ErikLaurence wrote:I was doing some hiking on the czech/polish border a few summers ago, there's a dead spruce forest there killed by acid rain.


Did you read the article I linked too? As far as water quality the theory put forth by Krug was that it's actually logging and exploitation of the forest in many of these areas at the turn of the previous century that allowed the water to drop below the threshold. The fish were never there to begin with but logging provided an environment they could live in. As the forest came back it raised the acidity of the lakes, now they are too acidic for the fish again. In other words they returned to their natural state.

As far as forests that article cites it as small problem here.

These latter claims were refuted early on by NAPAP research. Scientists found no evidence of damage to forests (with the exception of less than 0.1 percent of the red spruces found in the Southern Appalachian highlands). Nor did they find that it was causing soil minerals to leach into the water table. And in those forests that were dying, scientists found that insects and various plant diseases were causing the damage. Indeed, there was some evidence that acid rain acts as a mild fertilizer.

But Krug's research went even farther, raising disturbing questions about what were then accepted scientific theories. Specifically, Krug began to question whether acid rain even contributed to lake and stream acidity at all.

...........

Krug and Frink noted that acidity in lakes and streams had positive correlations with land use, a point verified by the EPA in 1989. Core samples taken from the bottom of many Adirondack lakes show increased acidity in the recent past but also show they were acidic and fishless before European settlement. Krug noted in his article "Fish Story," published in Heritage Foundation's Policy Review, that the translation of the Iroquois word adirondack is "bark eater," and history has shown that many of these lakes and watersheds failed to provide fish and game for the Indians.

Trout survived better in the Adirondacks around the turn of the century than in earlier times because of extensive slash-and-burn logging of that area. Eliminating the acid vegetation caused the soil to become more alkaline (a high pH), reducing the acid flowing into lakes and streams. In turn, the lakes became more hospitable to fish. After "forever wild" legislation stopped the logging in 1915, the watersheds reverted to acid soils and vegetation, and the lakes became acidic again.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:13 am

"Spend some time in eastern europe or the former soviet union if you want to see the results of unchecked industrialism on the environment."

I have. I've spent a lot of time there, specifically in czech and eastern germany. I've seen some of this supposed "acid destruction of forest" etc.; I was not impressed. I have lots of family in czech, they'll tell you that of all the evils of the soviet union, excessive pollution was not one which drew much concern.
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Re: Enviromental Politcs and your fishing rights.

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:27 am

Berlin wrote:"Spend some time in eastern europe or the former soviet union if you want to see the results of unchecked industrialism on the environment."

I have. I've spent a lot of time there, specifically in czech and eastern germany. I've seen some of this supposed "acid destruction of forest" etc.; I was not impressed. I have lots of family in czech, they'll tell you that of all the evils of the soviet union, excessive pollution was not one which drew much concern.



I was hiking up around Karpacz. The destruction there is pretty impressive.

Now that 's a data point of one so it doesn't mean much. But heck everyone else around here uses a single anecdote as evidence so I figured I would too. :(
ErikLaurence
 
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