Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:46 am

OK, I'm lazy, cheap and a refugee engineer.

All that being the case, I've been reading about the fancy oils that everybody buys for spring spa treatments for their stoves/stokers. And the notes by those who burn year-round, not surprisingly, that there's no opportunity for corrosion if the fire never goes out.

So I decided to do an experiment last spring. When I turned my furnace off, I waited about an hour for it to cool a bit, then popped off the flue and capped the outlet. Didn't clean it, didn't wrap the intake side, didn't empty the hopper, didn't even take the last ash bin out. My thesis was that if I didn't give it a chance to "breathe" the humid summer air, maybe I could reduce corrosion.

And we surely had a humid summer.

Tonight, like for so many others here, it was time to fire it up. So off came the flue cap and out came the shop-vac. The usual ash, but much less than the usual amount of rust. I'm counting it as a victory.

Hope the Phils have the same luck in this cold!
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: stovepipemike On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:22 am

Stockingful,You must give your conclusion as to why it worked out for you.Do you think that a layer of fuzzy powder of coal ash acted as a blanket to keep migrating humidity from good access to the metal? is it possible that the volume of ash absorbed some stray humidity? You just might be on to something here.Any pictures?
stovepipemike
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: KAA-2

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:54 am

Naw, much more simple: I just locked in the super-dry furnace air right after shutoff and didn't "open the can" till yesterday.

No moisture, no corrosion. Simple.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

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Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: CoaLen On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:34 pm

Stockingfull,
For what it's worth, I'm in your camp on this issue. I can't see how swabbing the inside of my Koker with water and baking soda will be good. I would do it if I could hit it with a pressure washer and soda, cleaning it to the bare metal. But doing the swabbing thing probably causes more problems than it'll solve. I simply scraped and wire brushed and vacuumed as best I could and then put a couple of desiccant packs inside and sealed it up for the summer.
A while back Freddy questioned the wisdom of the baking soda wash and after thinking about it, I decided he's probably correct.
Here's his post:
Freddy wrote:I guess I'm a bit lost on the baking soda thing. After I vacuumed my boiler out there was just a whisper of ash left on the metal. Even if that were pure acid it seems that it couldn't make much rust. I'm thinking the people that have severe rust issues have the stove in a damp environment. I'm inclined to think the water mixed with the baking soda does more harm than good. Just my $.03. Maybe dust it with dry baking soda?


I'm about to start up again for the winter and the Koker made it through the summer in good shape. I'm convinced the "dry cleaning" method along with desiccant bags is the way to go for my situation.
-Len
CoaLen
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Coal Size/Type: rice

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: 009to090 On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:02 pm

Wow! Surprising ! :shock: You may have something there. I didn't have any rust until AFTER I swabbed out the inside of my stoker with a Baking soda / water mix. The acidic ash acted IMMEDIATELY with the water, I guess BEFORE the baking soda could do its Neutralizing thing? It bubbled up, fizzed, and immediately turned red-rust color.
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:03 pm

Stovepipemike and Stockingfull pose some good questions about this system. Thinking about the layer of 'protective' ash from the surface perspective, I asked myself what forms rust? It's FeO2, iron oxide. The oiling procedure is done to provide a physical barrier against O2 contacting the bare metal. Washing with baking soda, Sodium Bicarbonate, does nothing to prevent rusting. It's done to neutralize any remaining H2SO4, sulfuric acid, that might form from as sulfur oxidizes in the presence of water. The sulfuric acid is corrosive to the metal IF it contacts the metal surface.

Now, back to that layer of 'protective' ash, if there's sufficient water and oxygen that contacts the ash, there can be sulfuric acid formed. If the acid is formed, it reacts with the water and the oxygen in the layer of ash. It would react from the outside toward the inside of the ash layer. If the water and oxygen are used up in that layer of 'protective' ash, oxidation/rusting of the metal surface could be minimized as less O2 reaches the 'unprotected' ferrous surface.

Maybe that's what is happening. Thoughts?
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:37 pm

I've tried the vacuum thing and left it alone to see the sides of my stove start to flake. For me it's best to wash out the inside with water and baking soda and then coat with LP3. The ash will absorb the humidity in the air and start rusting the metal. I guess if you closed everything and used damprid or a lightbulb then cleaning it with a wash isn't necessary. IMHO
traderfjp
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:58 pm

We need a chemist to answer whether pure oxygen can combine with the iron molecules, in the absence of moisture, to form FeO2, or whether moisture is required.

If I had to bet, I'd bet on the latter, since we obviously don't have corrosion problems while we're pumping mega-volumes of oxygen-laden air through there during heating season. (Maybe H2O + Fe + the S in coal = FeO2 and H2SO4, or some such.)

I don't think the ash layer has any effect on it, one way or the other, except as a distraction. My experiment was focused on "canning" the super-dry air inside the firebox as soon as I shut the thing off, in order to hold and "mimic" the atmosphere in there during the burn season.

Next spring I plan to wrap the intake side and go for the gold!
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:10 pm

get it to seal so tight that a good automotive a/c vaccuum pump could suck all the air and moisture out down to at least -29.99 in/mg or better yet then fill it with nitrogen.. or maybe huff on the nitrious oxide from the race car and not care about the rust..... this I believe is actually what Whistle nut does but keeps a closet secret... :shock: ;) :lol: 8-)
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:42 pm

Poconoeagle wrote:get it to seal so tight that a good automotive a/c vaccuum pump could suck all the air and moisture out down to at least -29.99 in/mg or better yet then fill it with nitrogen.. or maybe huff on the nitrious oxide from the race car and not care about the rust..... this I believe is actually what Whistle nut does but keeps a closet secret... :shock: ;) :lol: 8-)


The next question is, will he share? :)

stockingfull wrote:We need a chemist to answer whether pure oxygen can combine with the iron molecules, in the absence of moisture, to form FeO2, or whether moisture is required.

If I had to bet, I'd bet on the latter, since we obviously don't have corrosion problems while we're pumping mega-volumes of oxygen-laden air through there during heating season. (Maybe H2O + Fe + the S in coal = FeO2 and H2SO4, or some such.)


Right, either process needs water. Wrap it up or coat it in cosmolene, lps - an oil wrap - and expend the small amount of water trapped and nothing more reacts. What's that item people place in their gun lockers, a golden rod? It heats the space up to keep the water molecules moveing so as not to stay in contact on the gun's surface. That's another way to limit 'contact' with corrosion causing moisture.

... am I near a Holiday in Express?
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:53 pm

Depends what exit you are at! :lol:

Light bulb or goldenrod keep the container/stove warm/er and keep the relative humidity down.
Wrap the stove in a bubble and pump in the Nitrogen...
Eliminate the Oxygen...
Stop the rust!
Or you could dunk/submerge in a tank of Oil.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: europachris On: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:43 am

I've used DampRid for two years in my Keystoker after vacuuming out the entire stove thoroughly shortly after shutting down. I remove the exhaust from the DV and seal up the hopper opening at the bottom and the intake and exhaust ports. Even with the stove "sealed", I'm amazed at how much water collects in the DampRid bucket over the summer. Average basement conditions in the summer are 65F and 60%RH, maybe 70% if it's been really rainy. I have a dehumidifier as well as central A/C that has a return vent in the basement (finished).

But, rust formation inside the stove is nil, so I'm quite happy with the results. Actually last year I started the stove for a few weeks and then we had a week or two of Indian summer, so I shut it down. With it open to the outside through the DV and a fresh coating of combustion residue, it rusted quickly inside in many areas.

Chris
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:27 pm

I just read an article that instructed boiler operators, upon prolonged shut down, to place a large container of unslaked lime inside the ash pit and close the boiler up tight. The unslaked lime absorbs moisture inside the burn chamber and prevents rusting. Anyone know anything about this???
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: carlherrnstein On: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:08 pm

Unslaked lime is another name for calicum oxide. It's nasty stuff it can cause chemical burns, if you mix it with water it will make the water boil and it is almost impossible to find. Just put a light bulb in there and leave it alone.
carlherrnstein
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: combustioneer model 77B
Coal Size/Type: pea stoker/Ohio bituminous

Re: Outfoxing old "Rusty"?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:11 pm

Nasty stuff for sure! Sounds like fun though,....if you're sporting a Hazmat suit :shock:
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

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