I Was Sent Here to Ask..

 
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Ashcat
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Post by Ashcat » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 9:36 pm

ggans2 wrote:I read on another thread that SS pipe is not needed to burn coal and some say tile is better. I am willing to believe that based on what I learned so far. However how do you go from metal pipe to tile? How is the connection made?
I'm no chimney expert, and I hope that those here will correct me if I'm wrong here...BUT...tile refers usually to the square or round clay/terra cotta tiles that make up the liner of a masonry chimney. It is inside these tiles that the SS liner is inserted. When folks use a non-SS-lined, but clay-lined or terra cotta-lined chimney, there is no "connection" to the tile at all except for a short (maybe 5-8 feet) section of flue pipe inserted up into the chimney from the stove to minimize risk of exhaust gases entering the house from the chimney.

I don't imagine you spent 6K on a liner alone. What sort of chimney work was done? Refurbished an existing chimney? If so, what type of chimney is it?

My understanding is that SS liners with a "lifetime" warranty often cover the liner itself, but not the labor to install a new one--this might change the equation when an SS owner decides whether or not to closely inspect their liner :idea: . Also, what is it warranted against? Disintegration, pinholes, or some other type of damage? Manufacturers may be able to afford to offer a lifetime warranty because who is going to pull a liner to inspect it for damage? Almost no one. Video inspection of chimney is sometimes done, but how many people go to those lengths? And, can it spot pinholes? My guess (nothing more) is that there are alot of SS liners out there with pinholes, and maybe more extensive damage, that their owners know nothing about--because it has little or no consequence. This may be wrong, but it seems to me that exhaust gases leaking from a SS liner with pinholes or other damage ultimately, harmlessly find their way out the top of the chimney anyway.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that, if I were you, and if the reseller/installer doesn't agree to pull it immediately for a refund or replacement with a liner suitable for coal as you requested, I would burn wood in the stove... ...only long enough to get a coal fire burning :D After all, in ten years will you still be able to brag to your friends about having a pristine liner, never defiled by coal fire exhaust?

One more thing: depending on how much you'll have to pay per ton of coal vs natural gas costs, it's quite possible that the heating cost savings of coal over gas would allow you to replace that liner (if you need or want to) every few years, with money left over. My real world example is that I heated my house all of last winter with coal, for the same dollar amount I spent on propane in one 5 week period the winter before.

BTW, that's a beautiful stove you have, and a nice refurbishing you did. Also, I vent my fireplace insert stove into an "unlined" masonry chimney with terra cotta tiles--no problems.


 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 9:47 pm

ggans2 wrote:Some of you think I can still burn coal, and even if it does hurt the pipe how long would that take? Would it depend on time or how many burns ect..
I would. Hard to say how long, I would guess a minimum of three or four years, maybe 10 at best. It will last longer if the fire is never out, when there is no fire the moisture goes to work and eats it. Since it is a liner and you have a masonry chimney, its not going to hurt anything chewing it up because you didn't need it in the first place. Why worry about it? As warm as you are going to be for what work you do and the price you'll pay, you can sit there and enjoy the screams of agony coming from that stainless as it goes to meet its maker. :)

 
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Post by dlj » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:00 pm

The question you are asking is quite logical from your point of view, but it is not a question that can be answered directly. There are too many variables that are not known. Things that are not known include your stack entrance and exit temperatures, flue gas composition, volumen of flue gases generated, surface conditions inside the pipe installed, exact geometery of chimney and stove. Even if those currently unknown factors were to be known, the actual prediction of chimney life would be a guess. As is the case in all corrosion problems, there are many unknowns.

The best answer I could give you at this point would be to point you to H. H. Uhlig page 661 in his book "Corrosion Control" where he has a section on Corrosion by Condensing Flue Gases. In the table on that page 304 stainless is seen as the 4th one down on the list (it is equivalent to 18% CR-8% Ni steel). From that table you'll see that the estimated life span is 4 to 8 years... your milage may vary....

dj
ggans2 wrote:Thanks for all your help guys, I mean that. Some of you think I can still burn coal, and even if it does hurt the pipe how long would that take? Would it depend on time or how many burns ect..

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Post by ggans2 » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:12 pm

I think I made a big mistake, Long story short a had to rebuild the chimney, so the old one was taken down to grade and then the new one built. Since I was building a new chimney I thought I would build it with a liner. I thought it would be better , safer and easier to clean. So I had them put it in a tile so I could insulate it with this special stuff you mix up with water and pour down the tile. Then I would have a great chimney.

Then I started thinking about burning coal , that's when I found you guys and started learning. What I learned is my liner was a bad idea. The liner was said to be good for coal, wood and pellet.

They said the liner would last forever and I never looked into coal until after the fact , so its in there and it's not coming out unless I rip half the chimney apart. It sits inside the tile and is surrounded with the insulation which has cured hard.

Maybe if I put a big hole in the side and chopped off the top I could rebuild it, ???/

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Post by ggans2 » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:17 pm

Heres a few more shots.

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SMITTY
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Post by SMITTY » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:29 pm

After seeing those pics, I say sit back, burn coal & forget you have a liner. When the liner self-destructs in a few years, just clean the scrap out of the ash pit. That tile that the liner is in is all you need. Once the stainless disintegrates, you'll have a 100+ year lifespan on that tile. Just sucks that the liner is paid for....

Also forgot to mention my connector pipe is 304, & it took 2 summers sitting UNCLEANED in a soaking wet basement to become perforated. Although my 304 heating coils only lasted one...

 
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Post by ggans2 » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:39 pm

yeah but the bottom? I'm not sure about how it is enclosed.. On one of the pix you see an area where the pipe goes in the house, thats where he left a spot for me to add the insulation so I don't know what I would be left with when the T-pipe went away.

Boy did I really screw this up.
Last edited by ggans2 on Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


 
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dlj
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Post by dlj » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:40 pm

coaledsweat wrote:It will last longer if the fire is never out, when there is no fire the moisture goes to work and eats it.
This is not technically correct. When flue gases are leaving a chimney, they travel up the stack and cool as they approach the exit. Condensation can occur within the flue gas itself as the temperature approaches outside temperatures and condensates can form on the walls of the chimney. The condensation of greatest concern is that of sulfur bearing compounds that form sulfric acid. That attacks chimney walls, including terracotta liners.

Anthracites tend to run lower in sulfur, in the range of 0.6 to 0.8% S usually. Compare that to bituminous which tends to run between 1% and 3% sulfur. These numbers are generalizations, there are extremes in both cases...

There is also the problem of fly ash, which when it becomes wet will form acids that also attack the chimney walls. That does not happen while running and the system is dry...

I'm sure the company that has said their 304 stainless pipe is not for burning coal is more concerned with the use of bituminous.

dj

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:40 pm

First...
As smitty says burn the coal...
The deed is done...
The insulation will come out at some point...
The clay tile not supported laterally...
I have always seen it held off only by say an inch...
Then some refractory blobs to hold it straight...

 
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Post by dlj » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 10:45 pm

SMITTY wrote:After seeing those pics, I say sit back, burn coal & forget you have a liner. When the liner self-destructs in a few years, just clean the scrap out of the ash pit. That tile that the liner is in is all you need. Once the stainless disintegrates, you'll have a 100+ year lifespan on that tile. Just sucks that the liner is paid for....

Also forgot to mention my connector pipe is 304, & it took 2 summers sitting UNCLEANED in a soaking wet basement to become perforated. Although my 304 heating coils only lasted one...
After seeing these most recent pics - I completely agree with smitty... A hundred years is probably conservative...

I could only wish to have a chimney that good!

dj

 
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Post by ggans2 » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 11:03 pm

I don't know guys , I don't know what it all looks like in there with out the pipe. I would never sleep, I always like things perfect and extra heavy duty. Thats why I did this. Normal I would redo it when I did not like it, in this case it's not so easy .

 
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Post by Poconoeagle » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Many of us, and I included, are not just members of the overdoers anonymous club, but founders and presidents of it!!.

the one you built is done and over done. actually the liner is moot. use it ,,,clean it after the season, and use it till you cant walk erect any more. it will last till then and then till your children are also pushin up daisy's. sometimes a sales persons seed of doubt grows nothing but grey hair!!

did you use vermiculate and portland as the insulate? :D

 
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Post by 009to090 » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 11:30 pm

When/if the horizontal piece of SS liner corrodes, you'll need to remove it and insert a clay thimble. Thats probably the last piece of maintenance you'll have to do. I'd like to see some lateral support of that clay liner, though.

 
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Post by ggans2 » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 11:39 pm

Poconoeagle wrote:Many of us, and I included, are not just members of the overdoers anonymous club, but founders and presidents of it!!.

the one you built is done and over done. actually the liner is moot. use it ,,,clean it after the season, and use it till you cant walk erect any more. it will last till then and then till your children are also pushin up daisy's. sometimes a sales persons seed of doubt grows nothing but grey hair!!

did you use vermiculate and portland as the insulate? :D
Yes 4 bags or 180 pounds.

 
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Post by SMITTY » Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 11:41 pm

If this makes you feel better, I've been burning coal in this for 4 years. It's unlined, crumbling, has 2 jogs in it (here's one of them) & I haven't cleaned it in the 6.5 years I've lived here! :D


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