New Dealer in Lebanon Pa.

I just noticed on my drive to work that a new dealer opened up just east of Lebanon. I called and asked for a price per ton of rice. He told my he doesn't sell it buy the ton he sells it by the scoop like mulch. He told me each scoop weighs between 820 and 830 pounds. $75.00 per scoop. 2.43 scoops equals a ton. Around 180.00 per ton.

My question is wouldn't a scoop of rice weigh less then a scoop of nut? Or am I just splitting hairs and theres not that much difference?

Hi, He can not sell that way. He has to sell by the ton or parts of a ton and it must be weighed on scale with the weight showing on the sales ticket. If the coal is prebagged it must show the type of coal and the weight on the bag...50#, 100#, etc.

crazy4coal wrote:He can not sell that way.

He can if he doesn't have a license to sell fuel.

You don't need a license to sell coal in PA, what you need is certified scale and Weightmaster license to sign tickets. The Weightmaster license is pretty much just a formality of sending in the paper work but the scale is a different story as it needs to be tested and certified at least once a year.

As stated above he can't sell it that way and the Bureau of Weights and Measures will probably be paying him a visit.

My question is wouldn't a scoop of rice weigh less then a scoop of nut? Or am I just splitting hairs and theres not that much difference?

Assuming it was same exact volume yes it would be but since a "scoop" is highly unreliable way to measure things it's going to be all over the place. You need a pretty large bucket to scoop 800 pounds of coal if it's just a small machine. Coal is double the volume or rock.

If you agree to the terms, is it then OK? Is there a tax thingy or something the State wants?
I'm sure folks there do like the firewood guys here: They deliver loosely thrown in split wood and sell by the load. Usually by the cord. Everyone involved knows that the Bureau of Weights and Measures defines a cord a 4' by 4' by 8'. None of that 'face cord' crap the flatlanders try to pull on the BMW set. If you violate those terms, they will come an get you you. Most of us hear that they take you to an appropriately sized Oak Stump and nail your 'boys' securely there. Sometimes it takes more than one trip to the woods to educate them...or perhaps they just like the experience. Where is Stroker Boy when we need him to chime in.
I have bought coal by the tractor bucket several times, and it was as described...one ton per bucket of pea coal. It isn't rocket science and fair is fair, but should a small operator who provides a service at a fair price be forced to buy scales, build an enclosure, hire a weigh-master.....even an On Site Coal Czar?
I sure like the handshake method, and will die thinking you can trust your fellow man...98% of the time.
I do understand why regulators need there 'beans counted', and I am expressing my opinion as someone who has used the tractor bucket method for many years. Yes, my bulk comes with a weigh-masters slip from the State of PA, and I've never thought twice about the yield. All I say is: Thanks for the prompt service, and slip the driver a 50!

Jeese Wonebignut!!!!! I knew that the "bmw" crowd was tough up your way but when you start stringing guys up by their boyz for not giving you enough "wood", makes you want to change your moral terpitude. Seriously, I thought that crowd frequented the lower elevations Isn't it 4'x4'x8' seasoned oak, 5600lbs? Around here the guy with the coal sells it how he wants to. Your choice is clear. Buy or don't.

The Beemer boys are back! They bought Audi's for a while, but they couldn't handle the on-staff mechanic's weekly 2500.00 bills.
Yes, 5600 lbs at 8% moisture content. How the hell do you get 8% unless it is fresh out of the kiln? Then it won't stay there anyway. The Harvard and Dartmouth boys want the EXACT legal description as define by state law. Can't get a full measure in the trunk an Audi TT, however. Cayenne however...that's a different story. Go fast yuppie-mobile!!!!!

All that glitters isn't necessarily gold! Mercers are less frequent, but the Infiniti Line and Lexus models are well represented.
Somebody in America still has some ging.....and thank gawd they still spend it or we would all be behind the counter at Mickey D's. Construction is off some 80% around here. That is not a .08, that is an 80%. I know it is bad everywhere, and I hope things turn around soon.

I like your thinking, also, but I do know why the Big Guys get cranky when they are forced to maintain such strict standards, while a smaller operation falls through the cracks. It is all about the cost of doing business......and flying low level below the radar. Go to bed you cranky ole dudes.....walk the dawg, feed the pets, sleep for a few hours....get up and do it all over again....in the rain.

I've heard of people selling by the scoop, I too question the legality of it though. The place is getting out of the coal business for lack of business. I'm not surprised not enough people into bag it yourself, for there prices, and they didnt have delivery.

whistlenut wrote:If you agree to the terms, is it then OK? Is there a tax thingy or something the State wants?

No, they have to sell it by the weight. Same thing with wood in PA, you can't legally sell a "truckload" of wood. There's no sales tax on coal in PA, the only tax I'm aware of is the mine tax and that's already applied. Years ago Hudson used to charge like $2 a bucket to make things easy when the coal was around $100 per ton , a bucket is almost 40lbs. and a 40lb. bag was probably $5 at the time so it was worth it. The Bureau of Weights and Measures found out and gave them a lot of trouble over it. All sales go over the scale now.

Edit: just to note I'm referring to the laws in PA but I'd imagine they are pretty standardized everywhere.

Here in MA, you can sell by the "truck load", but you need the volume listed, in this case cubic foot. You can sell any bulk
item by volume or weight, you just have to be on the money. The cord wood thing is interesting in that 4x4x8 is stacked, but
not tight, according to MA law. Really old law too, like 1700s old. Also, you can have up to 15% soft wood in there. Not that
the customer would put up with it , but it is legal.
If the bucket is cubed and tagged by the weights and measure guy, it is legal.....here any way. Not everyone has a scale nor
do they have to. Volume measure is legal, as long as it is accurate. Load them if you got them!

Somewhere in the site I read that COAL was being sold as "Landscape Stone"...BLACK ROCKS...

If you pull into a Gasoline Station to buy 20 GALLONS of gasoline then the STANDARD is a GALLON and you expect 20 Gallons...

If you agree to buy a product, any product, by the bushel, scoop, or handful...then that's the STANDARD for that purchase; don't confuse it with another STANDARD; such as Weight (tonnage). You might make a conversion to weight, for your own satisfaction, but unless the dealer presents it as (e.g.) one ton then "don't hold his feet to the fire"


Bob

RMA wrote:If you agree to buy a product, any product, by the bushel, scoop, or handful...then that's the STANDARD for that purchase; don't confuse it with another STANDARD; such as Weight (tonnage). You might make a conversion to weight, for your own satisfaction, but unless the dealer presents it as (e.g.) one ton then "don't hold his feet to the fire"

What you and the dealer agree to makes no difference, you cannot sell solid fuel in PA without it being certified:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/070/c ... s9.21.html

§ 9.21. Weighmaster’s certificate required.

• (a) Rule for lots exceeding 100 pounds. A person may not sell, transport over a public highway, deliver or cause to be delivered or start out to deliver a solid fuel in a lot or lots in amounts exceeding 100 pounds unless each lot is in a separate compartment of the vehicle or vehicle and trailer and each lot is accompanied by a weighmaster’s certificate.
  
  
• (b) Exceptions. The rule in subsection (a) does not apply to solid fuel when any of the following occur:
  
  
  • (1) The weighing takes place at the point of delivery or sale.
    
    
  • (2) The producer of the solid fuel furnishes proof, satisfactory to the Department or to an inspector of weights and measures, that the solid fuel being transported comes from the producer’s own mine, is the producer’s own property and is being transported for purposes other than sale.
    
    
  • (3) The sale transaction entails the sale of a boatload or railroad carload of solid fuel delivered directly from the boat or car to a purchaser and accepted as to weight by the purchaser on the bill of lading or other voucher issued by the carrier.
  
  
• (c) Rule for lots of 100 pounds or less. A person may not sell, transport over a public highway, deliver or cause to be delivered or start out to deliver a solid fuel in a lot or lots in amounts of 100 pounds or less unless each lot is in a separate compartment of the vehicle or vehicle and trailer and each lot is accompanied by a weighmaster’s certificate. These requirements need not be met if the solid fuel is in closed containers or closed bags and the following information is plainly printed on the container or bag or on a tag securely attached to the container or bag:
  
  • (1) The net contents of the container or bag (expressed in avoirdupois pounds).
    
    
  • (2) The type of solid fuel.
    
    
  • (3) The name, address, city, state and zip code of the seller.

Richard,

Can Coal only be defined as a FUEL?
Does that mean that Coal MUST be used as fuel?
Does this apply to alternate uses such as Landscape Stone, Water Purification & Pool filters, Chemical compounding & etc.
In this instance we are not referring to the "delivery" of a fuel. It's retail cash and carry of architectural stone...

Ammonium Nitrate can be sold to the farmer as fertilizer...Mention of an "alternate" use could get everyone arrested!

Bob