In God We Still Trust

Great song by Diamond Rio. Kinda says it all, what this country was, and what it has become....

Hear, hear!

The first amendment to the US Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

An August 15, 1789 entry in Madison’s papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: “Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience....” from Wikipedia

I belive most if not all of the writers and signers of the Declation of Independence, the Constiturion, and the Bill of Rights believed in God. Much of the basic morality embed in those documents have its roots in their somewhat varied religious beliefs. The prohabition against establishing an offical goverment religion was meant to protect individuals from a goverment legislating manditory adherance to any particular religion. I don't believe they intended that their words would be interperted as justification for taking "God" and any and all manifestations of religious belief out of our government. Why would they have references to God in those documents at the time if their intention was to take "God" out of goverment like some are trying to do today? The Separation of Church and State doctrine is being carried to extremes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation ... ted_States

cokehead wrote:... Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights ... Much of the basic morality embedded in those documents have its roots in their somewhat varied religious beliefs ... The Separation of Church and State doctrine is being carried to extremes.

You have cause and effect reversed. Basic morality is inherent in humans in society, probably as an evolutionary trait. Religion was invented to formalize the morality. Religion came from morality, not the other way around.

We can trust in god all we want, but he isn't there, we just invented him. If you think separation of church and state is being carried to an extreme, take a look at Islamist states governed by Sharia law.

rberq wrote:You have cause and effect reversed. Basic morality is inherent in humans in society, probably as an evolutionary trait. Religion was invented to formalize the morality. Religion came from morality, not the other way around.

We can trust in god all we want, but he isn't there, we just invented him. If you think separation of church and state is being carried to an extreme, take a look at Islamist states governed by Sharia law.

Chicken or the egg?..................Darwin vs The Creationist..............Darwin was part of creation? The evolutionary trait of nurture is in our DNA. Without it we would extinct like the neanderthals. From nurture eventually morality. Most religions are the guardians of morality including the perdominate religion of the people who founded our nation. Those mostly Christain men (at that point in time) beliefs where then incorporated into their documents. The original origins of morality is a moot point in that their reality at the time was more fundimental than scientific. Bottom line...the morality was embedded along with references to God. Now humaist and atheists want to reshape our socity to bring it into comformity with their beliefs. I'm not saying that humanist and atheists have no moral base. I am saying that ethics based on critical intelligence is like reinventing the wheel. I think their rush to experiment with new moralities will only lead to learning why the old moral standards worked. There are centuries of wisdom in the "traditional moral values" so lets show the founders of our nation a little respect and stop arguing over references to God or mangers on public property and look at the bastion of liberty they gave us.

God is subjective and nothing more than a construct to make us feel better about ourselves. What your God is may and very probably does differ on what my God is. Jefferson had this concept down pat and yet, his mentions of God are flung about by people of differing beliefs as "proof" they are right in their thinking. Even a Muslim will pray to God and yet, I'm pretty his or her version of God is vastly different than what the song-writer was thinking when he wrote the song (no, I didn't listen - but the theme of the OP made it clear).

The separation of church and state and the Founders ideas on religion are some of the more twisted ideas about the Constitution.

You have to understand where they came from. King Henry had split from the Catholic church and made himself the head of the Anglican Church when the Pope in Rome wouldn't give him anymore annulments.

Then the fights between Puritans and moderates. Even the Pilgrims left England for religious freedom.

When government adopts an "official" religion, it usually ends badly for a bunch of people.

Look at Northern Ireland through the 20th century.

They were simply trying to head off something that they knew was a probability and would lead to the revocation of the most basic right, that to LIFE, due to the whims of whomever was in charge at the time.

First and foremost, "In God We Trust" was added to our currency in the middle of the 20th century. The pledge of allegiance when orginally written stated "One country, indivisible with freedom and justice for all".

These changes were brought about by Southern Baptists partitioning the government for the addition of God in the currency and the pledge.

When Religion starts using government to impose their views and morality on the rest of us (ie. abortion) then it is time for an extreme separation of church and state.

As far as I am concerned, if a church becomes politically active in any way shape or form, they lose their tax free status.

AdkCoal wrote:First and foremost, "In God We Trust" was added to our currency in the middle of the 20th century. The pledge of allegiance when orginally written stated "One country, indivisible with freedom and justice for all".

These changes were brought about by Southern Baptists partitioning the government for the addition of God in the currency and the pledge.

I hunted through some photos of old coins. The earliest example I could find "In God We Trust" was on a 1866 1/2 dollar.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22107

I just let the Pope tell me what to do. It is so much easier that way. Unless he decides you should be burned as a witch, or tortured for pretending that the world is round, or ....

Human beings screw things up, even religous people. There is no denying history. There is no perfection. I look at trends. I look at societies that are hostile to religion in general and I see death on a huge scale. I think of the Kamir Rouge , the perges of the Solviet Union, genocide,.....In balance are societies that are morally grounded by Christianity more or less safe for it's citizens? But still the main issue seems to be do we keep God out of the pledge or "In god we trust" on our money. No one is trying to establish an official religion in our government that I know of. I see these trappings as a statement of a general affiliation with the morality of deism. I have include a couple of links for the sake of discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Separ ... ted_States There is a lot here. I haven't read it all myself yet.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 923AAieX0Q

cokehead wrote: I look at societies that are hostile to religion in general and I see death on a huge scale. I think of the Kamir Rouge , the perges of the Solviet Union, genocide,.....

I look at societies that embrace religion and see death, pain, and misery on a large scale. Sharia law? Crusades?

But still the main issue seems to be do we keep God out of the pledge or "In god we trust" on our money. No one is trying to establish an official religion in our government that I know of.

Take it out. "under God" was not in the pledge until almost 150 years after the Constitution and/or the Bill of Rights were ratified. The far right complains about how the left attempts in small steps to erode the constitution, and that it is "not a living, breathing document". Funny how they don't complain about it with their own attempts at eroding the US into a Christian theocracy or imposing their Christian "morality" on others thru legislation.

If you chose to have a relationship with a "higher power" that's your business and I respect your rights, choice, and convictions.

But I don't need the government or anyone else telling me to acknowledge a God (theirs or my own) since I'm doing just fine without one.

cokehead wrote:In balance are societies that are morally grounded by Christianity more or less safe for it's citizens?

Ask the Indians of North and South America......

No one is safe unless there is a basic agreement on the importance of the individual and his basic "natural" rights. First and foremost, the right to exist.

I read this post carefully. I tried to look at what was said objectively and find ideas that we have in common, some of which I might of not expressed planly in previous posts. These are my observations.

1. I think we both are concerned about government being used as a tool of religious oppresion.
2. We are both appalled by death, pain, and misery caused by extremism and desire to guard against it.
3. We both believe in respectful debate and freedom of speech.
4. We both believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I must admit I wasn't aware of the history of "In God We Trust" and the pledge and I see you have a valid point. Also I have learned I need to educate myself more about the creation of the Constitution. As I have been reading I'm finding some of my presumptions where wrong. I'm getting off my high horse for now.

djackman wrote:

cokehead wrote: I look at societies that are hostile to religion in general and I see death on a huge scale. I think of the Kamir Rouge , the perges of the Solviet Union, genocide,.....

I look at societies that embrace religion and see death, pain, and misery on a large scale. Sharia law? Crusades?

But still the main issue seems to be do we keep God out of the pledge or "In god we trust" on our money. No one is trying to establish an official religion in our government that I know of.

Take it out. "under God" was not in the pledge until almost 150 years after the Constitution and/or the Bill of Rights were ratified. The far right complains about how the left attempts in small steps to erode the constitution, and that it is "not a living, breathing document". Funny how they don't complain about it with their own attempts at eroding the US into a Christian theocracy or imposing their Christian "morality" on others thru legislation.

If you chose to have a relationship with a "higher power" that's your business and I respect your rights, choice, and convictions.

But I don't need the government or anyone else telling me to acknowledge a God (theirs or my own) since I'm doing just fine without one.

Education is a continual thing. I am appalled at what Woodrow Wilson and FDR did at the beginning of the last century. And the people went along with it. Funny, I took 2 history classes in college after high school history, and I never heard such things.
Religion is a tool to motivate people to support whatever line of thinking the leaders(of the religion or gov.) want. I tend to vote conservative, but the support ends when religion comes in. The above examples of groups manipulating how we think and do things is the tip of the iceberg. Keep reading!!

Kevin