EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:56 am

europachris wrote:Thanks for the info and reality checks! :P Don't get me wrong - I'm very happy with the boiler (and the price)! I have about 0.01% of the experience Coal Berner has, so my reference of "bad" is only guided by what I'm used to. Since my job is taking nice clean sheets of A36 plate steel and turning it into brand new forklifts, anything that isn't clean, painted, and rust free is "bad", LOL. :lol: But it's also handy to be able to laser cut, form, and weld up to 1/2" thick.

It would be a simple matter of making a replacement DHW plate with weld studs and weld that in and then make a blank-off plate to seal it off for future use. Does the official EFM plate weld over the original hole after the studs are removed or does the old area get removed and the new plate flush welded? I'd prefer to cut out the entire "thin" area and flush weld a new plate after it's fit into place.

As far as the base goes, we're on the same page. I've been laying out some ideas in AutoCad, and plan to incorporate an access panel to allow cleaning the heat exchanger area without flue pipe removal since I expect more frequent cleaning with bituminous. I measured the inside of the boiler at 19"x19"x19" (LxWxH). The DL-30 has a 12 7/8" pot diameter (by the spec sheet), so I have about 3" at the smallest dimension on each side, and more in each corner. I'm currently thinking between 6 and 8" from the refractory hearth up to the bottom of the boiler. That should leave enough room for an access door 5 or 6" tall to clean the fire. I want to keep the height to a minimum so the heat goes into the water, not the base.

The other thought would be to raise up the stoker 8"-12" and then install it EFM-style and have room for a shallow ash pan underneath. But I don't think our coal will work well in that method of firing without a Prill-style rotating burn pot to break up the ash.

I'll be looking for a lot of advice from the experts here as my hydronic plumbing experience is about zero. I've lived in a few homes 20+ years ago with either oil/hot water or oil/steam heat, but that doesn't really count. But I can sweat copper and/or screw iron pipe together. I do bettr with the electrical/controls stuff and steel fab.

I don't know what boiler you got the 62 or 63 The 62 was in better shape then 63 the 63 needs that big plate Greg got
the 62 could use the smaller one take the bolt pattern of the boiler transfer the holes over to the plate your going to
make put new studs in weld the plate flush to the boiler body then make a cover plate with holes for the studs use one of the gaskets Greg has he got two one for each boiler and bolt the cover plate on then when your ready for a coil all you need to do is take the plate off and bolt the coil on Yes I wanted to tell you to make a clean out door on the base that will make it easier to clean out but remember you still need to take the flue pipe off the back to clean the pipe out so you can still go threw the flue to clean out the inside whatever works for you the base can be as tall as you need it Just the width and length has to stay the same for the boiler to fit onto it If you need more info or ideas Just PM me You not the first one to use them stokers to fit them boilers That is how efm started out in 1906 1908 making UV UVR and R stoker to convert hand fed boilers to auto feed boilers Feed the coal in take the ash out they had hopper on them or they could be set up to feed out of a bin the ash would come out and fall into 20 gal gav cans or a steel box some had one ash chute others had a twin ash chute they made model 45 60 80 100 lbs per hr The first 350 S-15 pot was 14" when they went to
S-20 that is 14.5" pot S-22 pot ring 15.5" So your DL-30 12 7/8" should have lots of room The efm pot ring sits about 1.5" 2" above the top of the base line / top lip in the base
coal berner
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
Stove/Furnace Make: Electric Furnace Man
Stove/Furnace Model: DF520

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:41 am

Chris, you are lucky enough to work in what we would like to call a 'fantasy world'. Man, what a privilege to work with new steel, robotic welders, huge benders, etc.
I know your comment about the 'rough condition' is accurate when compared to what you see every day, and that should give even more meaning to what is truly a rehabbed boiler out of Steve's shop.

Hope you get it re-engineered and ready for a shakedown firing soon. Keep an eye on Greg...looks like he has scorched the earth and rebuilt the old farm......tell him not to fall asleep or discuss company policy......or

Why didn't he take home a 1300 and do it all with just one boiler?????? I use a 900 for 10,000 sq ft and it doesn't even breath hard. That's with 360K more or less. The 1300 must be around 500 to 600K. 45 lbs an hour times 13000btu per pound....568K +/- of continuous heat output....that would be about 4 to 5 gals of oil/hr....ouch! :idea: :idea: :shock:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: europachris On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:43 am

Sting wrote:I am sure by viewing the posted pics of your new prize-- that the boring day trip was worth it. :)

I would have that bad boy hot by mid December.


I probably would, too, but I am right in the middle of having our deck remodeled and a Hot Springs Vanguard spa installed. Today I'll be running the electrical from the house to the spa which was just delivered yesterday. As a side note, I am keeping in mind how to heat the spa with coal next year..... :idea: :!:
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: europachris On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:53 am

whistlenut wrote:Why didn't he take home a 1300 and do it all with just one boiler?????? I use a 900 for 10,000 sq ft and it doesn't even breath hard. That's with 360K more or less. The 1300 must be around 500 to 600K. 45 lbs an hour times 13000btu per pound....568K +/- of continuous heat output....that would be about 4 to 5 gals of oil/hr....ouch! :idea: :idea: :shock:


Actually, Greg's Axeman 260 currently does all his heating needs without being overworked - and even more so once his remodel is complete. I helped install three doors while I was there last weekend (BIG doors) in the new addition and it's going to be beautiful when it's completed (and seriously well constructed and insulated!) I believe Greg plans to decommission Big Bertha and install his Iron Fireman into the EFM boiler instead for light load work and backup use in case the A-A goes down. His DL-30 will be installed similar to an EFM pot - raised over the ash bucket, and he's modified his tuyeres specifically for anthracite and it works really well.

My 350 is probably going to idle an awful lot heating 2800 ft. of newish house. I only have a 90K BTU input gas furnace. The garage will be heated when being used, but it's 16x20 and well insulated - not much requirement there, and hopefully I can add the spa without too much additional work as it would be worth it for the $$ savings from electric to coal.

I'll take a "picture tour" of the planned installation route today and post it. It's pretty interesting.

Chris
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: Sting On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:00 am

europachris wrote:
The other thought would be to raise up the stoker 8"-12" and then install it EFM-style and have room for a shallow ash pan underneath. But I don't think our coal will work well in that method of firing without a Prill-style rotating burn pot to break up the ash.



Exactly -- I was surprised to see Greg's design of the old IF pot just stuck in the burn chamber. The extension ring he applied was a step in the right direction -

But that will not be effective for you and that southern Il bit coal. Your pot will bloom a rather hard clinker (not light ash) - it will (may) get pushed out of the pot and if it falls far you will loose all that heat into the bottom of the ash pit. Maybe even the fire f it pulls enough material out of the pot ??? This fuel will not ash like you see other Antracks coal burners here have ash that shakes down. You will have chunks that will (may) need to be broken into manageable pcs and then "picked" out of the burn chamber. There will not be much "ash" to shovel out -- it will eventually congeal with the clinker and come along out with the chunk. Put the pot in there and fill around it with sand - then lay a course of fire brick level with the burn pot as a shelf to hold the clinkers and reflect the heat into the vessel.

If you do lift the vessel on a stand - that may be nice - as it will alloy you to peer into the fire door and work standing up vs on you knees.

I recall there were smoke boxes on the boiler and furnace of my youth --attached just after the smoke exited the appliance. The chimney was connected to that box. The soot would fall out of suspension as the products of combustion pased thru that low pressure chamber to the smoke pipe --- and the chimney stayed clean - but those boxes needed to be cleaned out. That was a black dust much like ground pencil lead.

The only time I recall that "ash" was removed from the burn pot area, was in spring after several days of cool down. Then the whole business was vacuumed out and broken fire brick replaced for next season.

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: Sting On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:05 am

europachris wrote: As a side note, I am keeping in mind how to heat the spa with coal next year..... :idea: :!:


That will be great -- the last days that the old kewanee boiler ran -- I had run a supply off to an HX build out of old truck radiator in a barrel to heat a hot tub built form a salvaged 1000 gallon barrel of Cypress wood -- Oh it was really a hack job - but it worked and that was all I cared about.

Wish I would have saved it ;(
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:13 am

I hear you on the boiler size. I have seen photos of the rebuild and obviously Greg has done his homework regarding tightening the envelope. We are in the climatic area when 6 feet of frost(frozen ground) in the roadways is the norm.
Water lines are down 6 plus or well insulated, but local streets are usually about 4 feet of frost. Naturally you won't be cold with the 350's output, but it sure is nice to have the heat source idle rather than run full bore. I know the AA's love to run hard and uniformly, but the AHS's, EFM's and Keystokers are pretty efficient at all heat ranges.
The 1300 would have let Greg set up a "Heating District" however I'm guessing his neighbors aren't all that close. It's a thought for folks closer to town...one boiler heats 6 to 8 houses and the hot water.....
A quarter of a mile from me is a 10,000,000 btu bio-mass boiler burning hardwood chips....boiler works great...feed system sucks. Shut down this AM, back on the two original # 4 oil boilers. 2 million invested and nothing but problems.....only with the feed, not the boiler. Now a few 'step-staged coal boilers would have been the ticket....
The Maint folks are always down here to look at the 900, the 260's, the 520's and 130's asking why they didn't go that route. No fuel issues, no steam or smoke, no scrubber required, no 200 ft chimney (12 ft diameter at the base) lots of bricks......Only off line when you choose.....and your tech person isn't in Virginia.....not next door. I'll get some pics (with permission) and post them for the nosey "want pics" folks. Are we in a 'monkey see, monkey do' forum???

:funny: :doh: :rofl: :yes: :wacko: :surrender: :bang: :secret: :discuss: :band:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:49 am

Hi Chris, glad you made it back home with all that 'old iron'. AND got it safely unloaded.

I think your design we discussed with the clean out door just above the refractory will work best with your 'local' coal. But the nice thing is that it will be fairly easy for you to redesign if needed..

As we discussed, I'd either plate over the thin area around the DHW coil or like you described, cut it out and plate it over.. since you won't ever need a DHW coil, this is the easiest way to go.

I forgot about your circulator needs.. I have more than one 'spare' Grundfoss 26-96, the equivalent to the Taco 0011, if you want one, let me know.

To clear up the interest about my boilers on my farm,, they have to fit through the doorway of the boiler barn,, and an EFM 1300 will not fit..
My plan is to create an Iron Fireman stoker-fired EFM 350 boiler over a huge ash pan, and use this during the spring/summer/fall for small heat loads and DHW. My AA is way too big for one heat call and two showers per day.. The underfeed stoker will run just fine with a fire the size of a softball, and still fire up and make DHW in about 10-15 minutes..

The advantage to using my Iron Fireman stoker, is that it will work just fine on Pea Anthracite.. this way I don't have to buy and store two different sizes of coal.. just the Pea for both boilers.. So,, a Hybrid Iron Fireman/EFM for light loads, and the AA260 for 'real' winter.

Chris, Thanks again for the help with the doors in the house, I got all the walls coated with a 1" layer of foam, and hope to have hot water running in the floors next week.

Greg L.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: coal berner On: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:05 pm

LsFarm wrote:Hi Chris, glad you made it back home with all that 'old iron'. AND got it safely unloaded.

I think your design we discussed with the clean out door just above the refractory will work best with your 'local' coal. But the nice thing is that it will be fairly easy for you to redesign if needed..

As we discussed, I'd either plate over the thin area around the DHW coil or like you described, cut it out and plate it over.. since you won't ever need a DHW coil, this is the easiest way to go.

I forgot about your circulator needs.. I have more than one 'spare' Grundfoss 26-96, the equivalent to the Taco 0011, if you want one, let me know.

To clear up the interest about my boilers on my farm,, they have to fit through the doorway of the boiler barn,, and an EFM 1300 will not fit..
My plan is to create an Iron Fireman stoker-fired EFM 350 boiler over a huge ash pan, and use this during the spring/summer/fall for small heat loads and DHW. My AA is way too big for one heat call and two showers per day.. The underfeed stoker will run just fine with a fire the size of a softball, and still fire up and make DHW in about 10-15 minutes..

The advantage to using my Iron Fireman stoker, is that it will work just fine on Pea Anthracite.. this way I don't have to buy and store two different sizes of coal.. just the Pea for both boilers.. So,, a Hybrid Iron Fireman/EFM for light loads, and the AA260 for 'real' winter.

Chris, Thanks again for the help with the doors in the house, I got all the walls coated with a 1" layer of foam, and hope to have hot water running in the floors next week.

Greg L.

The 1300 boiler will fit threw your door it is only 32" wide anyway the reason I told Chris to weld the pach plate with studs on it and use the cover plate with the holes in it so he can bolt it on and off is even if he neaver uses a water coil the next guy might when or if he wants to sell it later down the road with welding pach plate with out studs you can't use a
coil with out cutting the plate back out I am thinking on the resale value or ease on the next guy.
Greg we to discussed how to do the coil area when you picked them up Remember certain people do these on a regular bases for many years and some do not Just trying to show how it should be done the right way the first time around
and save someone else down the road a headache / some extra work.
coal berner
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
Stove/Furnace Make: Electric Furnace Man
Stove/Furnace Model: DF520

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:59 am

I doubt that anyone will be buying a bituminous burning, antique stoker equiped, custom based boiler requiring clinker removal every 12 hours.. Especially in Illinois. If it was going to be an athracite burning efm restoration, then, yes I'd go with the DHW plate/gaskets and nuts.. Since there is support for, and parts availble for an EFM stoker.

It can be repaired any way Chris wants, but with a solid plate there are no gaskets to leak, and no nuts requiring retorquing every summer.. His choice, but I'd lean towards a solid plate too. Nothing to leak.

Greg.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: whistlenut On: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:18 am

Greg, you have an perspective most of us do not. In your line of work, there are no second chances to do it right. Extra parts after a rebuild are not acceptable, falling asleep at the switch will result in more than an overheated room......

Looks like the rehab is going well, still plenty of time, and the AA will laugh at the first cold spell. If it did the job before, it will get fat and lazy with the new super-tight envelope.

Someday, I want to see Chris's place of employment, man oh man, I love it when science gets down to business. Too bad we can't afford it on our end. :up:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: europachris On: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:06 am

whistlenut wrote:Someday, I want to see Chris's place of employment, man oh man, I love it when science gets down to business. Too bad we can't afford it on our end. :up:


Well, it's not as impressive as you might think - somewhere between farm implement and automotive manufacturing, but it's a matter of perspective. But we take pride in our facility and it's really neat and organized for as much fabrication as we do.

But yes, with a laser cutter, CNC press brake, and a robotic welder (or even a good carbon-based welder :roll: ), spitting out EFM boilers (or stoves or whatever) becomes almost stupid-easy once the tooling and programming is done.
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: coal berner On: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:27 pm

LsFarm wrote:I doubt that anyone will be buying a bituminous burning, antique stoker equiped, custom based boiler requiring clinker removal every 12 hours.. Especially in Illinois. If it was going to be an athracite burning efm restoration, then, yes I'd go with the DHW plate/gaskets and nuts.. Since there is support for, and parts availble for an EFM stoker.

It can be repaired any way Chris wants, but with a solid plate there are no gaskets to leak, and no nuts requiring retorquing every summer.. His choice, but I'd lean towards a solid plate too. Nothing to leak.

Greg.

I am looking at it as a refurber Point of veiw boiler only for resale down the road and yes your right he can do it anyway he wants turning a few bolts maybe once a year is not a hard thing to do
coal berner
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
Stove/Furnace Make: Electric Furnace Man
Stove/Furnace Model: DF520

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: europachris On: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:13 pm

A little update on the project:

I drilled out all the pipe plugs a few weeks ago after massacring them with a 24" crescent wrench. I soaked them in PB Blaster for days and heated them with my propane turbo-torch, but they weren't going to move. I didn't even bother with the 1-1/2" and 2" plugs using a wrench as I knew they weren't coming out that way. I used my hole saw set and cored out all the plugs and cut 3 or 4 slots with my sabre saw and a metal cutting blade. A couple of taps with a cold chisel and the sections popped out like magic.

Today I set out to remove the corroded area for the DHW coil. I marked it with chalk and went at it with my angle grinder and a cutoff wheel (4-1/2", .060" thick, 36 grit). After I cut the lines, I used the hole saw again to cut the tie rod welds. I'll now use the old piece as a template to cut a new, solid piece from 1/4" A36 steel and weld it into place.

I have the base design mostly complete aside from deciding on which side I want to have the stoker inserted as well as the flue connection, flue/boiler tube cleanout access door, and clinker cleanout door. I'll likely make it from 10ga. material except the floor which 12ga. or 14ga. should suffice.

For controls, I am going to use a PID temp. controller (SOLO from Automation Direct). I will use the on/off control rather than PID, and it has 3 separate alarm outputs in addition to the main output. The alarm outputs can be configured separately and I will use one for low-limit circulator inhibit, one for high limit, and the other to inhibit the stoker on call for heat if the boiler temperature is above a certain point. I will use a Cubloc PLC for the actual controls, relay switching, alarm handling,, etc. In addition, I will have a Taco low water cutoff and a Honeywell high limit aquastat wired in series with the stoker to shut down the works if a relay sticks or the PLC or temp. controller goes haywire. It should be a simple, robust, and effective setup.
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Big hole now.....
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Insides look great!
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Looking down the tube area
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europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Re: EFM = Electric Fireman (new project alert)

PostBy: europachris On: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:18 pm

Couple more pics:
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Looking up at the boiler top. This boiler is built like a brick outhouse!
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Steel is pretty thin thru here.
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Chris
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Visit Lehigh Anthracite