Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:04 am

stockingfull wrote: And that's why the tea-baggers have been so upset since Obama became Prez: they were OK with the gov't having all that power, but only as long as it was their side. :roll:


And the D's are just as comfortable with gov't control as long as it's their side in power and not the R's. Or are you forgetting the fascist references the D's made while Bush was in office. I swear both sides simply exchange scripts when the other side gets elected just to save money and effort printing out the new talking points to send out to the Rush & Rachel puppets. More proof positive that there is no difference between the D's & R's. While the peons argue back and forth over the inane talking points the power abuse continues at the highest levels of our gov't by both sides.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:08 am

Maybe, but it was the "R's" who wanted and created that power.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:14 am

Libertarians are still pissed off about the Patriot Act. We don't really care who is the President, the Patriot Act contains numerous violations of the 4th and 5th amendments.

We've got this neat document called the Constitution. It outlines how we do things and what we are.

The Bush administration seems not to have trusted the Constitution, they wanted to end run the Constitution and create a new framework for prosecuting these people (which in 7 years they failed to successfully do).

While it is nice to see the current administration trusts the constitution enough to try these guys, they've got their own set of constitutional abuses to deal with (one of which is not undoing the previous administration's constitutional abuses).
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:46 am

In 1759, Ben Franklin penned these words in his "Historical Review of Pennsylvania":
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It couldn't apply more appropriately than to the Patriot Act, with it's "sneak and peek" warrantless searches, and virtually unfettered monitoring of email and telephone communications. Even library records.

All that was Bush's baby in the fear-stoked aftermath of 9/11. I listened to Viet Dinh describe its genesis at a bar ass'n luncheon years ago. It was literally a DOJ wish-list, rammed through Congress as a non-negotiable, take-it-or-leave-it-and-we'll-run-against-you-in-2002 piece of legislation. What it permitted was frightening enough; what actually has happened since then we know is far worse.

And now Republicans say they fear government "death panels." Maybe they know something we don't. :secret:
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:49 am

As for why the trials should be in New York?

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed;


I don't understand why "conservatives" have such trouble trusting the Constitution.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:03 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:As for why the trials should be in New York?

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed;


I don't understand why "conservatives" have such trouble trusting the Constitution.

Too "cumbersome" and "inefficient."

Except when they can buy-in to help their guy steal an election.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:12 pm

stockingfull wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:As for why the trials should be in New York?

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed;


I don't understand why "conservatives" have such trouble trusting the Constitution.

Too "cumbersome" and "inefficient."

Except when they can buy-in to help their guy steal an election.



That's kind of totally off topic.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:24 pm

Only the second sentence. Which I'll withdraw, since you're a mod. ;)
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:25 am

I find it interesting that Holder didn't have solid answers. While Graham may have been grandstanding by throwing out questions rapid fire, Holder didn't defend his decision with any conviction or fervor.

I think the first intent of the left is not necessarily to provide a fair trial but to defend their interpretations of the Constitution by rebuking the Bush administration. It is an altogether shallow perspective that is risky and pointless (giving them the benefit of the doubt as to virtuous intent). The treatment of enemy combatants is not new ground except for the Obama administration.

By trying the case in NYC, the epicenter of the attack, they run the risk of having a mistrial declared because an impartial jury cannot be seated in that venue. The trial should take place in Buffalo, Albany or Syracuse. That aside, the fact that Holder and Obama have stated resolutely and confidently that he will be convicted and sentenced to death smacks of a tainted system, one that doesn't even offer the hope of fairness. It will make the justice system look bad.

As far as Miranda goes, a civilian Federal trial will establish a precedent for treatment of the remaining enemy combatants. All of the incriminating interogation data collected over the years from the Gitmo detainees will be useless in court. Many of the detainees will go free. One wonders if it is the goal of this administration is to spare them from military prosecution and indefinite incarceration as combatants. Who are the Obama Administration trying to appease and why?
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:16 pm

stockingfull wrote:
Dann757 wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:The idea that we need to give up procedural rights to maintain safety has always been the first step toward tyranny. And that's why the tea-baggers have been so upset since Obama became Prez: they were OK with the gov't having all that power, but only as long as it was their side. :roll:


I wonder how many voted for "Change" only to find out that meant "more of the same"?

I can't be included in your broad brush assessment. I was very vocal about my opposition to the PATRIOT Act and everything since then.

I am NOT OK with government having anywhere near the power it has now.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:29 pm

mikeandgerry wrote: All of the incriminating interogation data collected over the years from the Gitmo detainees will be useless in court. Many of the detainees will go free.


Not quite.

It is admissible in court against others. It is just not admissible in court against the person who gave the testimony.

Let's say you and I were planning a crime, I get caught and do not get mirandized. I spill the whole story to the authorities. They can use my information to convict YOU, they just can't use it to convict ME. Miranda is about SELF incrimination. It only taints the information insofar as it pertains to prosecuting the person who gave it
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:25 pm

KSM admitted guilt, no one seriously doubts his involvement.

I recommend he accidentally falls out of the air transport in route to the trial, then we can all move on with our lives.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:12 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote: All of the incriminating interogation data collected over the years from the Gitmo detainees will be useless in court. Many of the detainees will go free.


Not quite.

It is admissible in court against others. It is just not admissible in court against the person who gave the testimony.

Let's say you and I were planning a crime, I get caught and do not get mirandized. I spill the whole story to the authorities. They can use my information to convict YOU, they just can't use it to convict ME. Miranda is about SELF incrimination. It only taints the information insofar as it pertains to prosecuting the person who gave it


Yes, Erik, I understand Miranda, thank you.

What the left doesn't understand is that none of these men should go free and none of these men deserve Miranda or any other rights afforded people in this country. They were caught on the battlefield. They were in military detention as enemy combatants. They should be held until Al qaeda is no longer a threat. In other words....until the war with them is over.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:18 pm

They knew it a long time ago...
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:17 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
What the left doesn't understand is that none of these men should go free and none of these men deserve Miranda or any other rights afforded people in this country. They were caught on the battlefield. They were in military detention as enemy combatants. They should be held until Al qaeda is no longer a threat. In other words....until the war with them is over.



Then they're POW's and you have to treat them as such.
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