Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:34 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
Well, the south didn't get the memo apparently. The role of the president was to preserve the union. Extraordinary circumstances called for extraordinary measures based on that objective.

The Declaration calls for "patient sufferance" to the point of losing what is yours. Curiously enough, it calls for that after it declares life an inalienable right for all people. The south didn't have the right to secede from the union for "light and transient" causes. It had to live up to its end of the Constitutional bargain. Lincoln defended the Constitution which was his duty.


You think economic sabotage is "light and transient"?

Because that is what the north was doing to the south. They put punitive taxes on the south and were driving them into poverty.

And do you really think that if you voluntarily join a group, that you may not voluntarily leave?

The General Assembly of each state ratified the Constitution and therefore joined the union. Why can they later not leave to union if the Assembly votes to do so?

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security


I call what the north was doing to the south "abuse" and "despotism". And per the Declaration, it was their DUTY to change it.

Lincoln was wrong. He had no authority to "preserve the union".

I suppose that once the south HAD seceded, they would technically be a separate country and he could ask Congress for a declaration of war against them.

But ONLY Congress can declare war. That is not the power of the executive branch. In any way whatsoever.

CONGRESS is the representative of the people. The power to wage war resides IN THE PEOPLE. THEY are the ones that will bear the cost in blood and treasure.

If the executive can wage war, what makes the president any different than say Napoleon or King George?

Executive wars are wars to bring glory and treasure to the executive, not for the good of the people.
jpete
 
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:43 pm

Interesting; I recently heard a very well-informed person posit, in the context of the origins of the current cultural divide between North and South, that Lincoln was wrong (in going to war to prevent secession). He should have just let 'em go.

But it's perhaps too easy to say that, since the instigating problem was whether new territories were going to be free or slave and, for that matter, to whom they would belong. And what about the Louisiana Purchase? The sheer inextricability of the ties may have been the reason the Civil War was unavoidable.
stockingfull
 
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:02 am

As industry in the North expanded it looked towards southern markets, rich with cash from the lucrative agricultural business, to buy the North's manufactured goods. However, it was often cheaper for the South to purchase the goods abroad. In order to "protect" the northern industries Jackson slapped a tariff on many of the imported goods that could be manufactured in the North. When South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification in November 1832, refusing to collect the tariff and threatening to withdraw from the Union, Jackson ordered federal troops to Charleston. A secession crisis was averted when Congress revised the Tariff of Abominations in February 1833.


http://ngeorgia.com/history/why.html

If you can buy a Chinese made item at Wal-Mart for cheaper than an American made one, do you think it is appropriate for the government to tax the Chinese made item at 300%?

Especially if it was an item that was vital to the survival of your business? An item you absolutely had to have?

Like say a shovel to a farmer?
jpete
 
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:52 am

jpete wrote:
As industry in the North expanded it looked towards southern markets, rich with cash from the lucrative agricultural business, to buy the North's manufactured goods. However, it was often cheaper for the South to purchase the goods abroad. In order to "protect" the northern industries Jackson slapped a tariff on many of the imported goods that could be manufactured in the North. When South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification in November 1832, refusing to collect the tariff and threatening to withdraw from the Union, Jackson ordered federal troops to Charleston. A secession crisis was averted when Congress revised the Tariff of Abominations in February 1833.


http://ngeorgia.com/history/why.html

If you can buy a Chinese made item at Wal-Mart for cheaper than an American made one, do you think it is appropriate for the government to tax the Chinese made item at 300%?

Especially if it was an item that was vital to the survival of your business? An item you absolutely had to have?

Like say a shovel to a farmer?



the shovel would be made here and my business would survive cause it would be the best shovel made for the best price so as to stop that mentality. the real american farmer would pay for my american made shovel cause he was the one fighting for the freedom to be able to farm in the first place befor the greedy crooks came and started the business of bean counting and daytrading..... :x



Subject: Made in America


A physics teacher in high school once told his students that while one grasshopper on the railroad tracks wouldn't slow a train very much, a billion of them would . With that thought in mind, read the following, obviously written by a good American

Check this out . I can verify this because I was in Lowes the other day for some reason and just for the heck of it I was looking at the hose attachments . They were all made in China . The next day I was in Ace Hardware and just for the heck of it I checked the hose attachments there. They were made in USA. Start looking.

In our current economic situation, every little thing we buy or do affects someone else - even their job. So, after reading this email, I think this lady is on the right track . Let's get behind her!

My grandson likes Hershey's candy . I noticed, though, that it is marked made in Mexico now. I do not buy it any more. My favorite toothpaste, Colgate, is made in Mexico now . I have switched to Crest. You have to read the labels on everything.

This past weekend I was at Kroger. I needed 60 W light bulbs and Bounce dryer sheets. I was in the light bulb aisle and right next to the GE brand I normally buy was an off brand labeled, "Everyday Value." I picked up both types of bulbs and compared the stats - they were the same except for the price . The GE bulbs were more money than the Everyday Value brand, but the thing that surprised me the most was the fact that GE was made in MEXICO and the Everyday Value brand was made in - get ready for this - the USA in a company in Cleveland, Ohio.

So throw out the myth that you cannot find products you use every day that are made right here .

So on to another aisle - Bounce Dryer Sheets . . . yep, you guessed it, Bounce cost more money and is made in Canada. The Everyday Value brand was less money and MADE IN THE USA! I did laundry yesterday and the dryer sheets performed just like the Bounce Free I have been using for years and at almost half the price!

My challenge to you is to start reading the labels when you shop for everyday things and see what you can find that is made in the USA - the job you save may be your own or your neighbors!

If you accept the challenge, pass this on to others in your address book so we can all start buying American, one light bulb at a time! Stop buying from overseas companies!

(We should have awakened a decade ago ....)

Let's get with the program . . . help our fellow Americans keep their jobs and create more jobs here in the U . S . A .
Poconoeagle
 
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:45 pm

We're kind of wandering here.

There's a jobs moving overseas thread Jobs moving Overseas

If we really want to have a discussion on the root causes of the American civil war we might start a new thread to do that.
ErikLaurence
 
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:28 pm

Poconoeagle wrote:the shovel would be made here and my business would survive cause it would be the best shovel made for the best price so as to stop that mentality. the real american farmer would pay for my american made shovel cause he was the one fighting for the freedom to be able to farm in the first place befor the greedy crooks came and started the business of bean counting and daytrading..... :x


I think you are losing track. One thing this DOES illustrate is that people of all generations will look for the best price first.

We're talking pre Civil War here. Maybe my WM example wasn't the best.

Do you think American manufacturers should be given free rein to charge whatever they wanted because the Federal government put it's thumb on the scale and distorted the market?

That's really the question here. Does the Federal government have the right to manipulate the market? With Congress composed based on population, and slaves not counting toward that number, the more populous, industrial North had a lock in Congress over the agricultural South.

So the north puts heavy taxes on imported farm tools with forced the south to enrich the northern factory owners. How is that any different than King George putting a huge levy on things like stamps and tea?

We fought a war to get away from that and 100 years later, we were doing it to ourselves.
jpete
 
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