Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:44 am

Graham presents some very compelling arguments as to why trying these individuals here is going to present a lot of problems. Holder seems clueless.

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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:57 am

Where were Graham & all the others for the seven years or so that they have been holding these thugs? IMO they should be rotting in a grave a long time ago, at the rate they were trying some of them most would die of old age before ever going to trial. Just makes me wonder if Holder would have decided on a military trial the same ones would be argueing for a civilian trial.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:12 am

Graham doesn't know what he's talking about and is grandstanding.

If you are not Mirandized then statements you make subsequent to being in custody are not admissible in court.

If you have enough evidence to convict prior to arrest then Miranda is unnecessary upon capture.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:26 am

ErikLaurence wrote:If you have enough evidence to convict prior to arrest then Miranda is unnecessary upon capture.


Correct but I believe his point is that Holder is setting up a precedent to try these individuals here. In the future where the evidence may not be so clear cut it could jeopardize their prosecution and/or military interrogation.

In other words you're putting military interrogators in a position to give these prisoners all the rights of a US citizen or jeopardize their prosecution.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:29 am

Miranda applies ONLY to what you learn after you start questioning a defendant. It doesn't exclude all the things you already know, or which the defendant already has said in videos released before arrest, or the physical evidence gathered before or independently of the questioning.

So the idea that Miranda rights could affect the prosecution of Bin Laden in any material way is WAY beneath the expertise of an ex-JAG like Graham.

But he was just show-boating for Fox, so nevermind.

And, as to Richard's point, all Miranda requires is that a lawyer be appointed and present. Worth noting here is that Zacarias Moussaoui was tried in federal court -- and now lives in Club Fed.
Last edited by stockingfull on Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:32 am

Interesting Miranda anecdote;

The Miranda warning comes from the case Miranda v Arizona. Ernesto Miranda was accused of kidnapping, he was caught and while in police custody he confessed. He was not told that he did not have to speak or that he could have a lawyer present. His lawyer appealed to get the conviction overturned, the case went to the supreme court and became Miranda v Arizona. The conviction was vacated.

The state retried him on the same charge but this time not using the confession to the police. He was convicted and went to prison on the original charge.

I guess Lindsay Graham was absent the day they went over the history of Miranda in law school.

Miranda only matters if you need to use their custodial statements in court.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:36 am

ErikLaurence wrote:Miranda only matters if you need to use their custodial statements in court.


...so they capture Joe Mohhamed on the battle field and during interrogation it's determined he was part of the 9/11 attack. They prosecute him here, the interrogation evidence is now moot.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:42 am

Richard S. wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:Miranda only matters if you need to use their custodial statements in court.


...so they capture Joe Mohhamed on the battle field and during interrogation it's determined he was part of the 9/11 attack. They prosecute him here, the interrogation evidence is now moot.

Wrong again, Richard. If there's any other evidence of the guy's participation, or guilt, it's unaffected by the absence of the warning. And if there's none, the confession is likely a fake claim anyway.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:47 am

Richard S. wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:If you have enough evidence to convict prior to arrest then Miranda is unnecessary upon capture.


Correct but I believe his point is that Holder is setting up a precedent to try these individuals here. In the future where the evidence may not be so clear cut it could jeopardize their prosecution and/or military interrogation.

In other words you're putting military interrogators in a position to give these prisoners all the rights of a US citizen or jeopardize their prosecution.


Lindsay Graham is right about one thing here. This is all new law.

The larger issue here is you're calling this a war. People captured on the battlefield in a war are POWs You don't get to try POWs. You get to detain them until the end of hostilities and then you have to let them go. We can't prosecute them under the Geneva conventions for war crimes because frankly strictly speaking we've been violating the Geneva conventions.

The Bush administration chose to invent a whole new set of laws and a new venue.

The Obama administration believes they can be convicted in the existing framework of federal law.

The previous administration had years to try to get their ducks in a row and try these people in their new venue. They failed to do so. Inventing a whole new set of laws and a new venue is not simple stuff. Especially in the absence of a constitutional mandate to so.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:19 am

stockingfull wrote:Wrong again, Richard. If there's any other evidence of the guy's participation, or guilt, it's unaffected by the absence of the warning.


I didn't suggest there was any other evidence other than what was gathered during the battlefield interrogation.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:35 am

Richard S. wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Wrong again, Richard. If there's any other evidence of the guy's participation, or guilt, it's unaffected by the absence of the warning.


I didn't suggest there was any other evidence other than what was gathered during the battlefield interrogation.

So the hypothetical you posed could be some psycho kid wannabe who wants credit for the big hit, right? And there's no other evidence, as you've just noted.

And you think it's an indictment of our criminal justice system that the solitary hypothetical confession might be thrown out and thus not be enough to convict and execute the guy?

I have more confidence in our prosecutors than that.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:40 am

Daily Show edited up a debate between Rudy Giuliani (during the Bush administration) and Rudy Giuliani (during the Obama administration)


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-n ... order--ksm
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: Dann757 On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:44 am

ErikLaurence wrote:We can't prosecute them under the Geneva conventions for war crimes because frankly strictly speaking we've been violating the Geneva conventions.


Oh, you mean like plotting for ten years to murder 3000 innocent civilians on 9/11? I guess you can't see Ground Zero from up there in buccolic pastoral all white Maine. Thanks for sticking up for our enemies we really appreciate it.
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:51 am

Dann757 wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:We can't prosecute them under the Geneva conventions for war crimes because frankly strictly speaking we've been violating the Geneva conventions.


Oh, you mean like plotting for ten years to murder 3000 innocent civilians on 9/11? I guess you can't see Ground Zero from up there in buccolic pastoral all white Maine. Thanks for sticking up for our enemies we really appreciate it.



Where exactly did I "stick up for our enemies"?

KSM is going to be tried in federal court.

KSM is going to be found guilty.

KSM is going to ADX Florence for the rest of his life (which will probably be short and end with a needle in his arm).
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Re: Graham Gives Holder Lesson in Law

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:54 am

Dann757 wrote:
ErikLaurence wrote:We can't prosecute them under the Geneva conventions for war crimes because frankly strictly speaking we've been violating the Geneva conventions.


Oh, you mean like plotting for ten years to murder 3000 innocent civilians on 9/11? I guess you can't see Ground Zero from up there in buccolic pastoral all white Maine. Thanks for sticking up for our enemies we really appreciate it.

We don't need to violate the Geneva Convention to prosecute these cases. Or to keep us safe.

The idea that we need to give up procedural rights to maintain safety has always been the first step toward tyranny. And that's why the tea-baggers have been so upset since Obama became Prez: they were OK with the gov't having all that power, but only as long as it was their side. :roll:
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