Monoflow Continuous Circulation System

jpen1 wrote:I wasn't refering to the radiators themselves or the balancing valves on each. I was refering to the main house loop that is in your basement and its connecting piping. That is where the root of all the evil lies. They are responsible for a considerable amount of your systems poor effciency. To achieve those loftty 20% fuel savings that are claimed you would have to properly re-size your loops.

The main house loop doesnt loose any heat well almost any. the main house loop in the basement is covered in asbestos insulation. the basement itself stays about 60-70 depending where you are in the basement. its warmer where the boiler is and cooler farther away from it. the asbestos insulation is the reason I probably wont ever rip the old big heat pipes out of the basement. plus like I mentioned they don't loose much if any heat.

jpen1 wrote:The danfoss valves will definitely help you to maintain more even heat at a cost. Anything that we get from Danfoss is $$$. They are the cadillac so to speak in both heating and refigeration products. I'm not trying to discourage you from bettering your system, I'm just concerned that you are going to spend quite a great deal of money and not realize expected returns from the project.

Yeah im not loaded, I don't have tons of money to blow when I mention danfoss im using them as a reference. id use whatever works the best for a good price. I don't plan on putting the danfoss valves on all 17 radiators just the ones I want to control.

mozz wrote:It sounds like it was a 1 pipe steam system and they converted it into hot water baseboard. If it's not set up as a loop, it should be re-plumbed as 1 or 2 zones with the proper size copper pipe.

It is a one pipe system. I don't have baseboard I have 17 radiators. hot water heat.

mozz wrote:or rip it all out and put finned baseboard in.

i love my radiators. I think they look great and don't want to get rid of them. im just trying to make my setup as it stands now more efficient. If continuous water circulation is the way to go then thats what I will do.

Sorry I missed that the mains are asbestos coated. I guess your next step is to install the 4 way 'bypass valve' as coaled sweat recommended and then put in the temp modulating radiator valves at a later date. The continuos flow if nothing else will eliminate the temps spikes thorughout the house and you should be able to balance the system by hand easier eliminating the need for those "danfoss type valves" in most if not all your rooms.

franco b wrote:By not having the boiler up to heat all the time, when a call for heat occurs then relatively cooler water is circulated and is gradually brought up to the heat necessary to satisfy the thermostat; no higher.

The boiler will operate at all times at its set points, let's say 160* low and 180* high. This should be more than enough temperature to supply the DHW demand, correct me if I'm wrong. The pump will run continuously in a plumbed loop from supply to return with the mixing valve at the opposite end of the loop from the boiler. The home's radiation is now plumbed into its own loop and the valve connects the two loops together and can be throttled from no flow to the full flow that he has now. Once the temperature falls below a thermostat setting of say 70*, the pump will start and run with that valve just off a closed recirculating loop in and out of the boiler. The room will now remain 70* at all times. When it starts it will feed 90* water continuously to the homes separate radiation loop to maintain room temperature. Then as the temperature falls, the valve will throttle the water temperature higher into the radiation loop as the demand calls for it to heat the house. As the weather warms it throttles down. The boiler maintains an ideal temperature at all times, this alone will extend the life of this boiler decades because he is beating the crap out of right now. Now that the water temperature runs up and down with the weather's temperature and gives off continuous heat instead of off cold on hot happening over and over and end the drafts associated with that. Smoothe, even heat should eliminate the drafts, no?

Am I missing something? I think I could live with that.

My indirect boiler will slowly make hot water with the boiler at 140°. At 160° it makes plenty. That's with the indirect set at 127, which it often overshoots when heated with coal.

jpen1 wrote:I wasn't refering to the radiators themselves or the balancing valves on each. I was refering to the main house loop that is in your basement and its connecting piping. That is where the root of all the evil lies. They are responsible for a considerable amount of your systems poor effciency. To achieve those loftty 20% fuel savings that are claimed you would have to properly re-size your loops. I could be wrong however but In every commercial refrigeration system or steam system I work on line size is one of the most critical elements in the systems overall efficiency. The danfoss valves will definitely help you to maintain more even heat at a cost. Anything that we get from Danfoss is $$$. They are the cadillac so to speak in both heating and refigeration products. I'm not trying to discourage you from bettering your system, I'm just concerned that you are going to spend quite a great deal of money and not realize expected returns from the project.

I simply don't understand how you can conclude that this one feature is the whole problem (Your words "the main house loop") - is causing global warming - growing hair on the back of your hands -and keeping the country from winning the war?? Energy is stored in that liquid -- the pipes are well insulated in a jacket of (something lets not mention) old and effective. Undisturbed they are not loosing energy. The distribution system is energy storage and fault tolerant flow for this big mono flow system -- that I might add would not work with skimpy pipe sizing. Changing the valves is a daunting taks but you simply cannot screw this up -- your not going to break the radiator - you might twist off a nipple and have to cut it out but that is infinitely repairable. Why so glum chum?

Sting check my last post I missed the "old insulation part at first. That being said even with the insulation there is a heat loss factor for that large piping. I agree with you that using the 4 way valve and converting to a constant flow will greatly help with the comfort factor of the home as well as save some fuel. I wasn't trying to be really glum on changing out the valves on the radiators, I was just trying to prepare him for some very possible consequences of changing the valves out. Not to get off topic but I guess my disdain for systems like my single pipe steam shows through now and again with my objectivity. Hopefully in the spring I will be fully rid of the very wasteful steam system once and for all with any luck. I love high presure systems but most of the low pressure single pipe sytems are fuel eaters.

jpen1 wrote:Sorry I missed that the mains are asbestos coated.

i have extra peices of the asbestos insulation in the basement if you want them.

coaledsweat wrote: The boiler will operate at all times at its set points, let's say 160* low and 180* high. This should be more than enough temperature to supply the DHW demand, correct me if I'm wrong. The pump will run continuously in a plumbed loop from supply to return with the mixing valve at the opposite end of the loop from the boiler. The home's radiation is now plumbed into its own loop and the valve connects the two loops together and can be throttled from no flow to the full flow that he has now. Once the temperature falls below a thermostat setting of say 70*, the pump will start and run with that valve just off a closed recirculating loop in and out of the boiler. The room will now remain 70* at all times. When it starts it will feed 90* water continuously to the homes separate radiation loop to maintain room temperature. Then as the temperature falls, the valve will throttle the water temperature higher into the radiation loop as the demand calls for it to heat the house. As the weather warms it throttles down. The boiler maintains an ideal temperature at all times, this alone will extend the life of this boiler decades because he is beating the crap out of right now. Now that the water temperature runs up and down with the weather's temperature and gives off continuous heat instead of off cold on hot happening over and over and end the drafts associated with that. Smoothe, even heat should eliminate the drafts, no?

Am I missing something? I think I could live with that.

could this be acheived by just wiring the circulator to run at all times, thus circulating constantly throughout the house and only firing when the low limit is reached on the triple aquastat or the thermostat if the temperature drops enough in the house?

Sting wrote:Changing the valves is a daunting task but you simply cannot screw this up -- your not going to break the radiator - you might twist off a nipple and have to cut it out but that is infinitely repairable. Why so glum chum?

why would it possibly be so hard to get the old valves off? Rust? someone painted over them? If so how do I cut them like u mentioned? a hack saw? I like the idea of the dan foss type valves, but I don't know if I need them in every room, just ones I don't need much heat in, wich isnt many and maybe ones I want a little bit warmer like the bathroom. I might really only need 5 of those valves. well maybe 7 would do it. either way, I think they would help out a bit.

jpen1 wrote: I love high pressure systems but most of the low pressure single pipe systems are fuel eaters.

This week I have been burning about 60-70 pounds a day, my house is 2700 sq ft with 17 radiators. do you think that is a lot of coal to be burning in late november. highs here in the high fortys to low 50's and lows in the low 30's

coaledsweat wrote:

franco b wrote:By not having the boiler up to heat all the time, when a call for heat occurs then relatively cooler water is circulated and is gradually brought up to the heat necessary to satisfy the thermostat; no higher.

The boiler will operate at all times at its set points, let's say 160* low and 180* high. This should be more than enough temperature to supply the DHW demand, correct me if I'm wrong. The pump will run continuously in a plumbed loop from supply to return with the mixing valve at the opposite end of the loop from the boiler. The home's radiation is now plumbed into its own loop and the valve connects the two loops together and can be throttled from no flow to the full flow that he has now. Once the temperature falls below a thermostat setting of say 70*, the pump will start and run with that valve just off a closed recirculating loop in and out of the boiler. The room will now remain 70* at all times. When it starts it will feed 90* water continuously to the homes separate radiation loop to maintain room temperature. Then as the temperature falls, the valve will throttle the water temperature higher into the radiation loop as the demand calls for it to heat the house. As the weather warms it throttles down. The boiler maintains an ideal temperature at all times, this alone will extend the life of this boiler decades because he is beating the crap out of right now. Now that the water temperature runs up and down with the weather's temperature and gives off continuous heat instead of off cold on hot happening over and over and end the drafts associated with that. Smoothe, even heat should eliminate the drafts, no?

Am I missing something? I think I could live with that.

I don't think you are missing anything and I agree that the system would work well and preserve the domestic hot water arrangement.

My objection is expense and I am leery of that tempering valve being reliable over time. I like simple if it will accomplish what we want. The major reason to maintain a boiler temp of 160 to 180 is to preserve the domestic hot water function at the cost of much higher standby heat loss, which in the summer is probably horrendous; and in the winter is heating the basement to the degree it now does desirable? I agree with you that it is better to keep a boiler at least warm however.

The change I proposed would eliminate the temperature shocks the boiler is now subject to and provide slow steady heat gradually increasing as the weather turns colder.

Very probably it could be done by simply changing the wiring connections to the stoker, aquastat, and circulator. I mean that running new wire would not be necessary in all probability. The circulator is probably controlled by an existing relay activated by the thermostat. We want the thermostat to control this and to start the stoker motor at the same time. It might be doing this already. If that is so then the only change would be to the aquastat. Would have to check if it could handle wattage for both motors. Probably yes. The low limit aquastat would now become the high limit and could be wired to interrupt the thermostat wire to the relay. No reverse aquastat; if the aquastat is a dual then remove the third wire for the circulator.

In operation the stoker would be on idle until a call for heat. The circulator and stoker would both start and heat would gradually build until the thermostat was satisfied. In cold weather the domestic hot water would probably be OK but in summer it would be necessary to change back the limit control or make hot water by other means.

I am not familiar with just how the stoker differentiates between idle and stoking in its control without looking at it, so it might require some change there.

Richard

franco b wrote:Very probably it could be done by simply changing the wiring connections to the stoker, aquastat, and circulator. I mean that running new wire would not be necessary in all probability. The circulator is probably controlled by an existing relay activated by the thermostat. We want the thermostat to control this and to start the stoker motor at the same time. It might be doing this already. If that is so then the only change would be to the aquastat. Would have to check if it could handle wattage for both motors. Probably yes. The low limit aquastat would now become the high limit and could be wired to interrupt the thermostat wire to the relay. No reverse aquastat; if the aquastat is a dual then remove the third wire for the circulator.

This is how it is wired now. What would I have to do to make the circulator run now and make the other changes you mentioned?

well Theres your problem!!!!!!

like oboingo, youv'e got it all scribbled up!!!! scrimped sup!

OH My

How far can we beat this to death

All this can be accomplished by simply choking a valve or two well closed, causing the --- Wait for it --- circulator to run almost constantly, while it is attempting to satisfy the thermostat set point.

Somebody ????? suggested that 80 or 90 posts ago???????

As the weather turns colder the valve(s) would need to MANUALLY opened slightly to introduce more energy into the loop --- and that's what the control discussed above will do automatically by modulating the pumping - modulating the flow - bypassing the boiler - or 12 other ways that could of may be devised.

Oh and then lets not forget the 5 or 7 non electric controls on the radiation of areas that don't need to be kept quite as warm. AGAIN-- if these (Original manual) valves are working a tidy home owner could crank them a quarter turn daily open or closed as the weather changes

This isn't Rocket science.

Poconoeagle wrote:well Theres your problem!!!!!!

like oboingo, youv'e got it all scribbled up!!!! scrimped sup!

i crossed out the steam section in the paint program. so it would only show the hot water diagram

Sting wrote:OH My

How far can we beat this to death

All this can be accomplished by simply choking a valve or two well closed, causing the --- Wait for it --- circulator to run almost constantly, while it is attempting to satisfy the thermostat set point.

Somebody ????? suggested that 80 or 90 posts ago???????

As the weather turns colder the valve(s) would need to MANUALLY opened slightly to introduce more energy into the loop --- and that's what the control discussed above will do automatically by modulating the pumping - modulating the flow - bypassing the boiler - or 12 other ways that could of may be devised.

Oh and then lets not forget the 5 or 7 non electric controls on the radiation of areas that don't need to be kept quite as warm. AGAIN-- if these valves are working a tidy home owner could crank them a quarter turn daily open or closed as the weather changes

This isn't Rocket science.

this seems like rocket science to me, and we have only had like 56 or so post so far not 80 or 90.

plus doing this scares me a bit as I don't want to do something like this then not have it work as I hoped or use more coal then I am now. im not a plumber, I don't have much knowledge of plumbing, or how things like this work. so I might need this explained to me 5 -10 times the same way in very simple english with a parts list and how a step by step process of what parts go where and how to make sure the wiring is right, and a board member, (maybe you) to come over and make sure my plumber did all of this right.

Is that to much to ask for ?????

i see!!! sounds like ya gotta go choke a valve or two and speriment till you can circulate consistantly and maintain a narrower temp defferential between the in and out

Poconoeagle wrote:i see!!! sounds like ya gotta go choke a valve or two and speriment till you can circulate consistantly and maintain a narrower temp defferential between the in and out

But im not sure what valves im chocking, the radiator valves?