Abortion

Forum rules
As the title "Thoughtful and Intelligent Debates" implies we want quality discussion in this forum. If you're going to post a new topic or reply to one here please make sure it fits the following guidelines.

  • Clear and descriptive title for your topic.
  • You don't need to write a book but please have a reasonable amount of material to support or dispute what you are discussing.
  • Outside references to material to support or dispute your argument can be used but they should not wholly make up your argument. If for example you reference a news article please explain exactly what you are referencing and why.
  • Stay on topic, while topics will wander in the general forums we want to keep them strictly on topic in this forum. Flaming will not be tolerated at all.

Re: Abortion

PostBy: Kenbod On: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:16 am

Awkward subject for a coal forum, no doubt. I am nonetheless curious to see what a group of regular people posts where the discussion isn't controlled by a pollster. Personally, I've always had trouble with the notion of exceptions in the case of rape or incest. If one accepts the prevailing Western philosophy of forgiveness of original sin or, more simply, that one cannot be punished for the crimes committed by his father, I find the exceptions of incest and rape troubling. Where one might otherwise oppose abortion on demand, some might make exceptions involving rape and incest. Thus for the crimes committed by the rapist, it is the offspring that is terminated. It sounds more like Afghanistan under the Taliban when girls were executed for the dishonor of being raped.

The basis for this exception is, of course, completely political, not philosophical. And I am aware of no scientific data that show that the children born as a result of either of these sins is at statistically higher risk of any particular disease process. That is also politically motivated.

As for those who suggest that those against abortion should not have them shows a misunderstanding of their pro-life neighbors. The issue for the movement is that a) those fetuses are (absolutely) alive: they grow, move, and breathe and b) said fetuses are (absolutely) human. On these 2 points there is no scientific debate. The question, then, is which living humans should have rights worthy of protecting.

The issue is keenly similar to slavery in that slaves were both alive and human, but, somehow, less so. They were abused in all sorts of ways. The abolitionists were told that if they didn't like it, they didn't have any. Beyond that, they were advised to leave laws off their property. Kinda like leaving one's laws off someone else's body.

In my job, I've seen and attended to every phase of life from egg retrieval to elderly death. I've watched hundreds of fetuses become newborns, from 20-something weeks on. And, rarely, I've helplessly watched them die too.

I dismiss the notion that one should be able to abort and discard a viable human life "on demand". I cannot make sense of the situation where a woman could be on her way to having a late-term abortion when she is hit by a DWI driver. She is rushed to the hospital where a baby is born (alive) but succumbs to the injuries. The driver, absolutely, is charged with homicide. Stranger things happen.

But all of this is off the big picture. The big picture is that with widespread acceptance of abortion as an option out of an undesired pregnancy, there has been a clear erosion of the value of human life. The bigger truth is that ALL of the rapes, incests, maternal and fetal abnormalities barely add up to a few percent off all the abortions performed. More specifically, over 95% of abortions are performed for convenience.

Like slavery, history will not be kind to that reality. There are simply too many options available.
Kenbod
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Van Wert Simplex Multitherm
Stove/Furnace Model: Keystoker Kaa-2

Re: Abortion

PostBy: djackman On: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:55 am

It's a woman's decision. She will have to live with the consequences, either way, for the rest of her life.

I find it interesting that those with the loudest voices about keeping government out of our lives, personal freedom, and living in a "free" society are often the loudest voices in telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body.
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Abortion

PostBy: whistlenut On: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:49 am

Very well stated! ................and your observations are spot on. Thank you for your contribution!

I always wonder what those specific individuals would say it it were their daughter; wife; sister; mother....

How is it possible than any responsible mind can try to control another, simply because others believe something different.

Rev. Jim Jone's has some Cool-Aid Mix left over, he surely won't need it anymore. Feel free to have a big gulp.......... :idea:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB


Re: Abortion

PostBy: cokehead On: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:49 pm

I'm all for liberty but we have laws to help protect people from being wronged. We have laws againt assault, rape, murder, ect and nobody would say that those laws are an infringement on personal freedom but for the protection of a potential victim(s) of such crimes. I don't understand why as a society we are unwilling to extend those protections to the most vunerable among us...those who have yet to be born. A pregnecy lasts about 9 months; physical death is permanent. I don't see how a womans rights should be so great that they can end a life forever if they so chose. If a fetus isn't worthy of the protection of the law who's next? Who decides?
cokehead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Locke, Godin, Tarm in da works
Stove/Furnace Model: Warm Morning 617-A, 3721, 502

Re: Abortion

PostBy: whistlenut On: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:11 pm

Not you!
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Abortion

PostBy: gaw On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:22 pm

We argue over this abortion choice thing like its elective surgery “do I get a nose job or not?” then I hear about crap like this and I realize just how crazy our society is.
NEW BEDFORD – An Acushnet man was sentenced Tuesday to a year of probation for running over and killing a mother duck walking her 12 ducklings across a mall parking lot.....

Prosecutors requested jail time, but the judge imposed the lesser sentence because Linhares did not have a prior criminal record. ...

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/12/joshua_linhares_of_acushnet_ge.html
I don’t want to highjack the debate, my point is mother ducks are worth more than premature humans.:wacko:
gaw
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice from Schuylkill County

Re: Abortion

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:26 pm

You will go to jail if you run over a permature human also.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Abortion

PostBy: Paulie On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:29 pm

Have a problem with abortion in cases of rape and incest ? Where is the choice in that? Western philosophy does not help
the victim. Getting raped in the back alley, or a family member jumping you, are FORCED. No choice, no philosophy . To expect some one to bear a child started as a crime is outrageous. Rape and incest are abominations before
man and GOD. The result of which should be expunged a.s.a.p. The perp should be castrated and killed as well.
Paulie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: Abortion

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:50 pm

I am a bit wishy washy also about abortion, but I agree totally with Paulie.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Abortion

PostBy: gaw On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:52 pm

Who is telling who what to do? Abortion is legal in all 50 states and you will lose your privilege to burn coal long before abortion is outlawed. I will never need an abortion so I can live with the law either way. (I feel bad for the guy getting probation for hitting the duck)About 1% of all abortions are because of rape or incest, about 15,000 out of 1.3 million.

Who’s getting abortions how many and why?
http://www.guttmacher.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf
gaw
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice from Schuylkill County

Re: Abortion

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:11 pm

Madrid, Spain, Nov 12, 2008 / 09:21 pm (CNA).- The Spanish daily “La Razon” has published an article on the pro-life conversion of a former “champion of abortion.” Stojan Adasevic, who performed 48,000 abortions, sometimes up to 35 per day, is now the most important pro-life leader in Serbia, after 26 years as the most renowned abortion doctor in the country.

“The medical textbooks of the Communist regime said abortion was simply the removal of a blob of tissue,” the newspaper reported. “Ultrasounds allowing the fetus to be seen did not arrive until the 80s, but they did not change his opinion. Nevertheless, he began to have nightmares.”

In describing his conversion, Adasevic “dreamed about a beautiful field full of children and young people who were playing and laughing, from 4 to 24 years of age, but who ran away from him in fear. A man dressed in a black and white habit stared at him in silence. The dream was repeated each night and he would wake up in a cold sweat. One night he asked the man in black and white who he was. ‘My name is Thomas Aquinas,’ the man in his dream responded. Adasevic, educated in communist schools, had never heard of the Dominican genius saint. He didn’t recognize the name”

“Why don’t you ask me who these children are?” St. Thomas asked Adasevic in his dream.

“They are the ones you killed with your abortions,’ St. Thomas told him.

“Adasevic awoke in amazement and decided not to perform any more abortions,” the article stated.

“That same day a cousin came to the hospital with his four months-pregnant girlfriend, who wanted to get her ninth abortion—something quite frequent in the countries of the Soviet bloc. The doctor agreed. Instead of removing the fetus piece by piece, he decided to chop it up and remove it as a mass. However, the baby’s heart came out still beating. Adasevic realized then that he had killed a human being,”

After this experience, Adasevic “told the hospital he would no longer perform abortions. Never before had a doctor in Communist Yugoslavia refused to do so. They cut his salary in half, fired his daughter from her job, and did not allow his son to enter the university.”

After years of pressure and on the verge of giving up, he had another dream about St. Thomas.

“You are my good friend, keep going,’ the man in black and white told him. Adasevic became involved in the pro-life movement and was able to get Yugoslav television to air the film ‘The Silent Scream,’ by Doctor Bernard Nathanson, two times.”

Adasevic has told his story in magazines and newspapers throughout Eastern Europe. He has returned to the Orthodox faith of his childhood and has studied the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas.

“Influenced by Aristotle, Thomas wrote that human life begins forty days after fertilization,” Adasevic wrote in one article. La Razon commented that Adasevic “suggests that perhaps the saint wanted to make amends for that error.” Today the Serbian doctor continues to fight for the lives of the unborn.
Black_And_Blue
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska 140

Re: Abortion

PostBy: whistlenut On: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:19 pm

The very best part of intelligent debate is to admit each person has a right to his or her opinion. I will always agree to that premise....don't have to agree or disagree, but happy to have those rights either way. :roll: :idea: :D :arrow:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Abortion

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 am

Kenbod wrote:As for those who suggest that those against abortion should not have them shows a misunderstanding of their pro-life neighbors. The issue for the movement is that a) those fetuses are (absolutely) alive: they grow, move, and breathe and b) said fetuses are (absolutely) human. On these 2 points there is no scientific debate. The question, then, is which living humans should have rights worthy of protecting.

The issue is keenly similar to slavery in that slaves were both alive and human, but, somehow, less so.

I dismiss the notion that one should be able to abort and discard a viable human life "on demand". I cannot make sense of the situation where a woman could be on her way to having a late-term abortion when she is hit by a DWI driver. She is rushed to the hospital where a baby is born (alive) but succumbs to the injuries. The driver, absolutely, is charged with homicide. Stranger things happen.

But all of this is off the big picture. The big picture is that with widespread acceptance of abortion as an option out of an undesired pregnancy, there has been a clear erosion of the value of human life.
Like slavery, history will not be kind to that reality. There are simply too many options available.


I have always found it incongruous that the party that embraces science, nearly to the point of worship, chooses to ignore it when it inconveniences them or is an obstacle to their most wanton political goals. Obviously, individual human life begins sometime between conception and birth. Science can determine when, but no one in science is clamoring for that discovery. Aquinas was probably close in his assessment of when life begins, and there may be a window of opportunity for the abortion of a "mass of cells" that does not yet represent a protected individual human life. But will we ever know based in science to settle the issue? No, the dems won't allow such a thing, it is heretical to the greater religion of political power.

Also incongruous with Democratic party belief is that the human life in utero is without rights if the mother so chooses, while the law in criminal cases defines the fetus as an individual. Further, the notion that the woman "owns" the fetus like chattel is odd for a party that claims that "it takes a village to raise a child". Does that philosophy not imply shared ownership of responsibility? It took two people to create the child and certainly the mother and the law would claim the father owns half the responsibility after birth, at least in a civil society. On this issue, the "party of logic, reason, and virtue" is quite vacant.

What is truly disappointing is that there are so many options for the avoidance of this type of misfortune yet the statistics remain high. Quite frankly I would like to see abortion remain available to all, respecting safety and free will, to satisfy the left, but only if, to satisfy the right, all those seeking abortions are pre-counseled about all available options for the mother and baby along with a full and graphic presention of the event and the consequences for all. Given that the left places such a high value on education, this should not be asking too much.

Abortion, as an accepted method of birth control, vacates all social virtue.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: Abortion

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:50 am

Abortions have been around since someone figured out how to do them. Making a law against them will only force them back into being an illegal act & bring back the back alley abortionist & self attemps. I believe that it is the womans choice in the matter & it would be much better if done to have it done as early as possible & as safely. What would be the proposed penalty? With every broken law there has to be a penalty, if you plan & kill a fetus would it then be a crimal homocide? Would you impose a death sentence (eye for an eye) it would be kind of an oxi-moron. Or would it just be a hefty fine so that it would become a wealthy person choice. The supreme court ruleing to my knowlege (limited) gave a woman the right to choose would it now be just to remove that right & which right would be the next to remove because it is unpopular?
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Abortion

PostBy: cokehead On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:41 am

Just because women have been having abortions from the beginning or recorded history doesn't make it right and certainly shouldn't be used as a justification for condoning it. People keep saying it is a woman's right. I keep asking myself what ever happen to the unborn child's rights. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The unborn can't spreak out in their own defense. They strive to live and grow. That is their only voice. As a society we deny the unborn their humanity and rights so their destruction can be justified.

"As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence. " Benjamin Franklin
cokehead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Locke, Godin, Tarm in da works
Stove/Furnace Model: Warm Morning 617-A, 3721, 502