Moving heat up stairs

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: pzou812 On: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:52 am

Is there such thing as to much of a cold air return or is it more the better. With my cellar door open its like a wind tunnel when I walk up stairs from the basement. Now wouldn't you think that would move the heat in a big way. Its funny if I stand at the top of the cellar stairs I feel the heat coming up but don't no where its going I think its going down the hallway towards the bedrooms. Now that's the side where the stove is could it be that that's the loop and that's why the other side of the house is cooler? I think I am going to place a fan and try and move the hot air to the cooler end of the house before I do something that cost to much.
pzou812
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:39 am

You could always try a smoke pencil or matches to try and see where the air is moving towards. I've always had better luck with the smoke matches then I did with the pencil, but they don't last long at all.
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:57 pm

As others have pointed out a stove on a lower level causes all kinds of convection currents as the hot air rises and cold air returns. What I find objectionable is the cold draft across the floor and down the stairs from the cold air return.

Most, when attempting to get heat to outlying areas resort to some sort of duct for the hot air and let hallways and stairways act as returns which causes that cold draft across the floor and stair.

I wonder if it might be equally effective to emphasize the return rather than the hot air feed. Suppose in a distant room on the upper floor you cut a register to act as a return only, maybe with fan assist blowing into the lower level, or maybe ducted back to the stove or just to the floor. Would it work as well as a hot air duct and would it eliminate the cold floor draft replacing it with warm air? If it did it would need less duct work and non at all on the stove. Has anyone tried this?
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea


Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: pzou812 On: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:53 pm

I have not tryed it but thought of doing it. Its a weird thing every house is different i think you just have to figure it out. All of the input and feed back is great i think a little of this and a little of that. I put a small desk top fan down stairs in on a shelf at the ceiling level blowing towards the stairwell to force the warm air up so far its working but need a couple days to see the effect. I will keep you posted. Its 15 out so its a good time to see if its going to work.
pzou812
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: tsb On: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:43 pm

tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: 009to090 On: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:06 pm

Adamiscold wrote:You could always try a smoke pencil or matches to try and see where the air is moving towards. I've always had better luck with the smoke matches then I did with the pencil, but they don't last long at all.

I used a neutrally buoyant balloon. :idea: It moved in such low air flow that we could not see with smoke. Amazing where that balloon went!
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: arcticcatmatt On: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:01 am

Check out my thread with pictures!
Old Alaska Kodiak Stoker II rebuild

That is how I am moving heat upstairs.. but this season I am about to do something new. I am going to do the heat jacket maybe and something else. This works 10x better than leaving it alone but I want to get even more heat upstairs and less heat downstairs.
arcticcatmatt
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska Kodiak Stoker II

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: 2001Sierra On: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:03 am

Help me here. What is a neutrally bouyant ballon, or how do you make one?
2001Sierra
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90 Chimney vent
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Buderus Oil Boiler 3115-34
Stove/Furnace Model: Keystoker 90 Chimney Vent

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: 009to090 On: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:12 am

2001Sierra wrote:Help me here. What is a neutrally bouyant ballon, or how do you make one?

Fill a balloon halfway with air. Add just enough helium to allow it to float about 4 heat off the floor.
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: pzou812 On: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:18 am

Well I am getting closer every day. This morning it is 9 out and i am warm. The upstairs above the stove is 72 and the other end of the house that is usually cold is 70 so that is a good thing. Now the basement is about 84. Its not even but like i have been told i am not going to get even with a stove. From what i have see it looks like the only way to grab most of the heat from the stove is to use a jacket. For now i am going to keep messing around with fans they are cheap and some what effective. In the colder part of the house is the kitchen and dining room they both have cathredral ceiling so in the dining room i put the paddle fan on low to blow the warm air down its working pretty well. But even on low it feels cool so i think i will get a speed control so i can make it go slower.
pzou812
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: BigSven On: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:58 am

This is an interesting thread as I had the same problems too. I have a 2000 sq ft cape code with a radiant stove in the basement. Basement is uninsulated block wall but the rest of the house is somewhat tight (built in the 1990s).

Basically from my experimentation and searching this forum, Ive come to the conclusion that adding return ducts at the far end of the house made the biggest difference. I added one at the base of the main staircase on the first floor, one at the farthest upstairs bedroom, and another directly above the stove in the living room. We also leave the basement door open.

The return vents just terminate at the basement ceiling, no duct fans, no ductwork extended to where the stove is. But you can really feel cold air coming out of these vents when the stove is going.

I also experimented with box fans in the basement, but I noticed that the barometric damper would open up farther and the manometer would drop about .02 . So I stopped doing that and I just let the heat find its own way and it seems to be working great. Basement is 80, 1st floor is mid 70s and upstairs is low 60's. Our upstairs has some insulation problems (knee walls/dormers) and I think that would improve once I fix all that.
BigSven
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey
Stove/Furnace Model: Hannover

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: crocker On: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:45 pm

Hello been watching this thread for a while and , I am enjoying it as you figure it out , I see everyone who is in this position trying to even out temps and that have cold rooms that are hard to heat are doing Supply supply and more supply, Franco's post is somthing you want to follow , Its all in the return air (how much) and placement is your answer, Look at conventional duct heating systems this will give you a good Idea how air is to be moved when you want to condition it ,weather cold or hot, Look at the size of supply ducts and look at the size of return ducts , AH you will always find the return ducts are bigger then the Supply air ducts, another important factor is how many outside walls does that particular room have 1 - 2 - 3 , the more outside walls you have the more Britsh thermal Units (BTUs) you will need to condition that space , calculations of sq ft per room will tell you how many BTUs is needed to condition that particular space , then you need to know how many cubic sq inches of duct you need to to move the rite amount of cubic ft per min (CFM) that gives you the proper amont of BTUs, Remember In heating a space you are really not heating the said space you are taking cooling out of the air, as in the same applies for A/C you are not cooling the air you are taking heat out of the air., this is all based on the LAW of British thermal Units (BTUs) (Example )12,000 BTUs = one ton of refrigeration .Hope this helps you out .
crocker
 

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:41 am

DVC500 at last wrote:
Adamiscold wrote:You could always try a smoke pencil or matches to try and see where the air is moving towards. I've always had better luck with the smoke matches then I did with the pencil, but they don't last long at all.

I used a neutrally buoyant balloon. :idea: It moved in such low air flow that we could not see with smoke. Amazing where that balloon went!



That's a nice cheap way to find the air flow in ones home and the balloon should last for a while too. Great idea!
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: Bratkinson On: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:40 pm

It's all about air flow...push or pull the hot air upstairs, and pull the cold air back down.

In the past 10 months, I started by ducting my Channing III to the hot air side of my forced-air furnace and found although the house was comfortable where I wanted it comfortable, the basement was quite toasty from the side-walls of the Channing. So I rigged up a couple of box fans to blow basement air across the stove and then up the basement steps.

This fall, on the advise of an HVAC friend, I simply blew the hot air into the basement, cut a large (24"x32") hole in the cold air return of my furnace and kicked on the furnace fan. It really worked great! When I had a new furnace put in 10 years ago, the HVAC guys worked out the ideal air circulation pattern for my house and using the furnace fan to move the hot air from my stove around was a good solution. Unfortunately, the electric cost associated by keeping the furnace fan on 24x7 and the thought that I'm heating the cement block walls in the basement was the end of that plan.

So, I tapped into 2 cold air returns from my living room and now pull the cold air with a pair of 405 CFM fans and send the output air from one fan through the Channing (replacing the somewhat noisy Dayton fan) . I built side-wall jackets to get that heat upstairs and send the air from the other fan through the jackets. Both warm, toasty air outputs are now ducted into into the hot air side of my furnace again. Viola! At current electric prices, it's now less than $.50/day to run the two fans.
Bratkinson
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Channing III
Other Heating: Gas FA
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III

Re: Moving heat up stairs

PostBy: crocker On: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:10 pm

Bratkinson sounds as though you found the perfect way of moving air around your house by using a lot of return air and your furnace in fan position, Those of you who do not have a furnace , can still follow some of what he did , even though you are trying to heat with convection heat only , the first thing you have to to is relize which most of you due is heat rises naturaly and cold air drops ,So why fight the nature of the beast ,Stop stealing air from your basement by moving air out with supply fans without properly moving air back to your stove, those of you with your stove in the basement must look at the basement as a balloon to help with the natural convection of hot air.what we want to do is continusly fill the ballon with air ,Positve pressure room (basement) , returning the rite amount of air is the key to getting a even tempeture through out your home by continusly circulating the temperd air in your home, So all you will need to do is cut in your floor reagisters (outside walls are the prefrence when heating ) Now you need to bring that tempered air back to your heating source without making a big project and costing big money , but we need to bring enough air back to keep the basement in a positive pressure enviorment , So we need some fans or fan and maybe a little duct work, So how much air do we need a 1000 to 1200 sq ft house would need 600-900 cfm returning back and up to 1800 sq ft would require 1000 to 1200 cfm back , this can be done buy utilizing a closet wall that is faceing a hallwey or large living area , A 14x14 flat grill and 3ft of 16x6 duct or you can enclose it in wood ,making your return duct out of wood ,Just cut the wall open in the closet to fit the duct or box out with wood and cut the floor out, leading you to the basement let about 12 inch stick into the basement to except the fans , then cut your grill in on the finished side of the wall, I buy my fans and lots of other stuff from a place called Surplus center , they have all kinds of fans and motors at reasonable prices I just purchased 2- 200 cfm fans 6'' Round from them for $10.00 each, I bought a 340cfm fan witch was 7''x7'' for about $18.00 only 1.5 amps and quiet . I would take 2 of these 340cfm fans and install the in the 16x6 duct in the basement returning 680cfm for a house under 1,200 sq ft ,the larger the house would require more setups like this ofcourse, those of you with 2 story home can also achieve this ,PM me and I will help you if you are intrested .
crocker