More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: tvb On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:00 am

On a state level, it would work however the population voted I guess.


Now you're back into the tyranny of the majority. You either have a republic or you don't. Which is it that you want?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:08 pm

As opposed to the tyranny of the minority?

Which is what I feel we have now.

I'll go with the majority. It's the only way.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: rberq On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:29 pm

jpete wrote:As opposed to the tyranny of the minority?
Which is what I feel we have now.
I'll go with the majority. It's the only way.

Let's pretend you are a plumber by profession. Damned plumbers never show up when they say they will, and they charge exorbitant rates. So the rest of us, the majority, vote just for spite that plumbers can only drive Volkswagen Beetles. That's the tyranny of the majority.

There are constitutional rights you have, along with everybody else in the country, that can't be taken away by vote of your fellow citizens -- equal protection of the law, in this case. If plumbers -- a small minority -- go to court and the judge says they can drive Ford F-150's, is that tyranny of the minority?

It does not work for basic rights to be at the whim of a majority vote. What if we don't like the color of your shirt and 51 percent of us vote to lynch you?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:14 pm

rberq wrote:
jpete wrote:As opposed to the tyranny of the minority?
Which is what I feel we have now.
I'll go with the majority. It's the only way.

Let's pretend you are a plumber by profession. Damned plumbers never show up when they say they will, and they charge exorbitant rates. So the rest of us, the majority, vote just for spite that plumbers can only drive Volkswagen Beetles. That's the tyranny of the majority.

There are constitutional rights you have, along with everybody else in the country, that can't be taken away by vote of your fellow citizens -- equal protection of the law, in this case. If plumbers -- a small minority -- go to court and the judge says they can drive Ford F-150's, is that tyranny of the minority?

It does not work for basic rights to be at the whim of a majority vote. What if we don't like the color of your shirt and 51 percent of us vote to lynch you?


That's why we have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

The MAJORITY voted for THAT. :D

The tyranny of the minority is ACORN making enough noise to get my tax dollars. And welfare recipients crying every time they are threatened with level funding.

Any time a comparatively small group gets to put it's hand in my pocket, that's the tyranny of the minority.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: rberq On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:25 pm

jpete wrote:That's why we have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

My point exactly.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:52 pm

Right.

I get the feeling that stocking thinks it's either the crappy system we have now or anarchy.

We need to get back to following the rules this country started with.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: tvb On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:04 pm

jpete wrote:Right.


We need to get back to following the rules this country started with.


That's why we have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

The MAJORITY voted for THAT. :D


That's not what you said a few posts up above. In fact, you were advocating a different form of govt as I recall.

By the way, the Constitution was not constructed by virtue of the majority. It was a bunch of like-minded old white guys who put it together. They were appointed by the states' legislators at the time. There was never a popular vote on it; rather it was ratified by votes of the state legislators - a process that is still in effect today should we want to amend the constitution. This is the representative government we have.

I would've thought you knew this basic history, Jeff. I guess I thought wrong.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:27 pm

jpete wrote:I get the feeling that stocking thinks it's either the crappy system we have now or anarchy.

We need to get back to following the rules this country started with.

Hardly. Our system isn't "crappy." But it wasn't written by Tom Paine, either. It balances individual liberties with the needs of the community and nation.

In fact, "majority rule" has nothing to do with your private property, thanks to one of those "rules this county started with." In pertinent part, the 5th Amendment provides that
No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Even the federal income tax required amendment of the Constitution. Obviously, Paine's anti-aristocratic ideas about wealth accumulation didn't find their way into our law.

On the other hand, Art. I, sec. 8, provides broad powers
... To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; ....

You can easily see the line around which so many of the interpretive arguments have been had, on so many different issues. But I don't think anybody is arguing that, for example, Medicare is unconstitutional. Nor, obviously, would be any "public option" for healthcare.

So what's your point?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:36 pm

tvb wrote:
jpete wrote:Right.


We need to get back to following the rules this country started with.


That's why we have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

The MAJORITY voted for THAT. :D


That's not what you said a few posts up above. In fact, you were advocating a different form of govt as I recall.

By the way, the Constitution was not constructed by virtue of the majority. It was a bunch of like-minded old white guys who put it together. They were appointed by the states' legislators at the time. There was never a popular vote on it; rather it was ratified by votes of the state legislators - a process that is still in effect today should we want to amend the constitution. This is the representative government we have.

I would've thought you knew this basic history, Jeff. I guess I thought wrong.


Put the claws back in.

I've never advocated anything BUT Constitutional government.

I'm well aware how the Constitution was written. Maybe we should try following it.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:44 pm

stockingfull wrote:You can easily see the line around which so many of the interpretive arguments have been had, on so many different issues. But I don't think anybody is arguing that, for example, Medicare is unconstitutional. Nor, obviously, would be any "public option" for healthcare.

So what's your point?


The point is, do we "help" one group to the detriment of everyone else?

If you want to help them, why not volunteer your money or time and let me make the same decision?

The government is set to raise the national debt limit again. Where does it end? When does it come crashing down?

Do you really believe we are impervious to economic realities of places like Germany in the 20's, Argentina, Zimbabwe, North Korea?

You can't just keep handing money out. No matter how good hearted your attempts may be. When did someone else's child take precedence over mine?

I work hard and make good money yet my children have to do without. I have to do without. 30% of my pay is gone before I even open my check.

Enough is enough already.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:51 pm

Whatever merit your points may have, our elected representatives generally have the power to make those decisions by majority vote.

If you don't like deficits, where were you while the deficit was exploding during the last 8 yrs?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:19 pm

Same place I am now. Calling and e-mailing my members of Congress. I have them all in speed dial on my cell phone.

Going to rally's either locally or D.C.

My first one was the Boston Tea Party Rally for Ron Paul on '07.

I wish I could have gone to the one this weekend but my wife was working a 16 hour shift on the ambulance and I didn't think my 3 year old would sit though several speeches in Faneuil Hall.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:41 pm

Ron Paul's a fascinating guy but it's interesting to contemplate how anything would get done if his ideas became reality. Answer: not much.

On the Tea Parties, they were conceptually misplaced from the git-go. The original Boston Tea Party wasn't about spending less, or deficits, or "Obama-care," it was about taxation without representation, at that time a tax levied by the British Parliament on tea coming here. Nothing more, nothing less.

We all have representatives in Congress, Jeff; you've got yours on speed-dial. So the premise for a Tea Party just isn't there. I presume you understand that.

But I must say it amuses me how many people think they know our country's history, but don't.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:50 pm

stockingfull wrote:Ron Paul's a fascinating guy but it's interesting to contemplate how anything would get done if his ideas became reality. Answer: not much.


RIGHT! The less the Federal government does, THE BETTER!!!

stockingfull wrote:On the Tea Parties, they were conceptually misplaced from the git-go. The original Boston Tea Party wasn't about spending less, or deficits, or "Obama-care," it was about taxation without representation, at that time a tax levied by the British Parliament on tea coming here. Nothing more, nothing less.

We all have representatives in Congress, Jeff; you've got yours on speed-dial. So the premise for a Tea Party just isn't there. I presume you understand that.


And don't get me started on Tea Parties. YOU are the one that doesn't understand. And you never will.

You THINK you have representation but who do you think your member of Congress listens to? You? Or a high paid lobbyist?

stockingfull wrote:But I must say it amuses me how many people think they know our country's history, but don't.


Maybe it's all those years of high quality Federally funded "education"....
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:10 pm

What I don't understand is how our country possibly could have risen to the greatness it's enjoyed if Ron Paul's theories had ever been applied.

It's just a delusion. You want all of the benefits and none of the obligations. That's an imaginary world which never existed, and never will.
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