More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:25 pm

What "greatness"?

Our students aren't the best in the world.

There sure is still plenty of poverty, violence, drug use, general crime.

Whatever manufacturing we used to do is long gone and isn't coming back.

We've killed most of the farming industry?

What greatness are you talking about?

The greatness of killing people around the world because they won't play ball? I'm not that happy about our image around the world.

I'm not saying we EVER were where I, or Ron Paul, etc, would like to be. But why should I let that stop me for shooting for it?

No one ever went to the moon until Kennedy made it a priority.

Why not make the Constitution a priority?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:31 pm

The Constitution IS a priority. Do you think nobody in the "Ron Paul Revolution" is a lawyer?

Besides, if you believe that, why do you worry about majorities and minorities? A minority of one can make a Constitutional argument. Many have, and have won. That's what it's there for: to protect certain rights from the vicissitudes of opinion.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:41 pm

In this government, the Constitution is an anachronism.

I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers involved with Ron Paul. Judge Napolitano leaps to mind. I'll save you the cost of his books. He's no fan of how things are going either.

And a minority MIGHT be able to make an argument. If the SCOTUS decides he "has standing". If not, he's SOL.

How'd asserting their rights work out for Kelo and her neighbors in the Fort Trumbull area?

Oh that's right, the government threw her out on her ear and gave her land to Big Pharma. Who proceeded to bulldoze it and then pull stakes.

The government exists for itself. "We the people" stopped mattering a long time ago.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:10 am

Jeff, if you're that interested in the law and the Constitution, go to law school. Because you seem to have favorites in these cases, but no coherent sense of the rules of law being applied.

Our federal system has three levels, and generally there are four separate decisions, including three full levels of appeal, before the Supremes dispose of any close Constitutional question. First, there's the District Judge's ruling. Then there's the three-judge Court of Appeals panel. Then there's the "en banc" (full) Court of Appeals. Finally, there are the Supremes. So each side gets FOUR, count 'em, 4 chances to make their Constitutional arguments.

Sure, there have been a few bad decisions, and there regularly are close questions which could go either way. Close cases are what the Supremes are there for. And there's no doubt that politics has affected the Court over history. The study of Constitutional Law is essentially the study of the Supreme Court over time.

But save your pot shots on their decisions until you've demonstrated to somebody that you know what you're talking about.

That is, except on Bush v. Gore, where every justice did just the opposite of what they previously had espoused about "federalism" and "states' rights."
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:13 am

So you're a lawyer are you?

No wonder we don't get along.

Law school?

No thanks. I'm happy making chips, producing wealth for the country.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:22 am

Typical response; non-lawyers never think lawyers "produce" anything. If they have to litigate and win, the case was easy and the lawyer too expensive. If they lose, it's never because they had a losing case. Oh, and the lawyer was too expensive.

Yet the laws aren't as simple as people wish, because life isn't as simple as people wish. Most any argument has two decent sides. And, if people could settle their disputes without lawyers, they would, and often do.

But I guarantee you that your company wouldn't even be there without us, to say nothing about your Constitution.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:33 am

Didn't say we didn't need lawyers. I love Judge Napolitano. Judge Learned Hand is another great man.

Just that you are a service, not a good.

ONLY goods produce wealth.

Services transfer wealth.

Whether it be arguing in court, of mowing my lawn, a service produces nothing. It takes money out of one persons pocket and puts it in someone else's.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:59 am

OK, let's apply your definition. Technically speaking, the only people "creating wealth" in your business are the farmers who grew and harvested the potatoes. Everybody else in the company supplies a service, I suspect including you.

Whether you're an exec, a machine operator or a janitor, you are adding the value of your skills to advance the enterprise. That's exactly what lawyers do.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:46 am

stockingfull wrote:OK, let's apply your definition. Technically speaking, the only people "creating wealth" in your business are the farmers who grew and harvested the potatoes. Everybody else in the company supplies a service, I suspect including you.

Whether you're an exec, a machine operator or a janitor, you are adding the value of your skills to advance the enterprise. That's exactly what lawyers do.


No I make a tangible good that never existed before I applied my skills.

A good that can be put on a boat and sold worldwide.

Can you do that with your argument?

I'm not saying that your skills don't have a market. Obviously, people like me at some point need people like you to navigate the Byzantine system that has been created by the political class......maybe.

I MIGHT be able to go my whole life without needing a lawyer. How long can you go without manufactured goods?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:42 am

OK, let's try this another way. What exactly do you do to produce these goods?
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:17 pm

I take a lump of stainless steel(usually) and make a part that goes into a larger assembly which is sold around the world. Right now it's typically for the oil and gas industry. It's just a basic fact of business. There are value added and non value added costs. I'm sure this company employs armys of lawyers. Not one puts a part out the door. Wealth is only CREATED by investing labor to produce something that didn't exist before. SERVICES only move money around. Those services may be necessary but they never produce a saleable good to generate revenue.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: tvb On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:20 pm

I'm sure this company employs armys of lawyers. Not one puts a part out the door.


But without them, neither would you, in all likelihood.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:59 pm

jpete wrote:I take a lump of stainless steel(usually) and make a part that goes into a larger assembly which is sold around the world. Right now it's typically for the oil and gas industry. It's just a basic fact of business. There are value added and non value added costs. I'm sure this company employs armys of lawyers. Not one puts a part out the door. Wealth is only CREATED by investing labor to produce something that didn't exist before. SERVICES only move money around. Those services may be necessary but they never produce a saleable good to generate revenue.

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

First, are YOU really "creating wealth," or are you part of a team? In other words, what's your part worth without the others? Are there engineers who design the parts you make? Did they "add value" by putting blueprints in your hands?

And what are the final products worth without some proprietary protection of the designs? Do you think somebody who works on protecting the "intellectual property" which your company's designs represent from simply being copied and made someplace else, without all the engineering investment, is somehow "adding less value" than you are?

Actually, you should be as thankful for them protecting your company's posterior as you are for the cops who keep people from breaking into your house.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:23 pm

First, cops don't prevent people from breaking into my house. The fill out paperwork after someone breaks into my house. And I can still manufacture and sell stuff without engineers or lawyers. A friend of mine has his own shop. He's not an engineer and he doesn't have a bunch of lawyers around. But if you drive a GM or Toyota vehicle, there are parts in there that came from a machine he (and I) built. Do you not understand the concept of direct and indirect costs? They may both be necessary, but some add value and some don't. I need electricity to turn my machine on but the CEO of the utility company didn't add value to my part.
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Re: More "Common Sense" from Thomas Paine

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:32 pm

tvb wrote:
I'm sure this company employs armys of lawyers. Not one puts a part out the door.


But without them, neither would you, in all likelihood.

Maybe. But if services like legal representation create wealth, why are we so far in debt? Why were the best times in this country when manufacturing was the strongest? RI has more lawyers per capita than anywhere else in the country yet we are half a billion in debt. Where's all the wealth they created. And coincidentally manufacturing has been gutted in this state. Go ahead and outsource all the manufacturing in tbe country. Who will be able to afford your service?
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