Running off of generators or inverters

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Johnshan On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:49 pm

You just told us not to use a conventional (common) generator on your stoves unless we want problems.

Since you didnt publish this fact until after I purchased my stove are you willing to refund my money?
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: mr1precision On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:24 pm

If a line conditioner would help I have two of them, cheap. These are used for very sensitive electrical equipment. We had to use these for a controller that was hyper sensitive to spikes. PM me if interested.
Steve

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mr1precision
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: KLook On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:44 pm

As a contractor I have had several generators. I have never seen anything that would not run on one. I ran all over during the Ice Storm hooking up to peoples houses and nothing ever failed. And I did not hear of anyone having problems. I am sure there is some issue or it would not be discussed, just what causes it unless the generator is out of whack?

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

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Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:09 pm

Rick 386 wrote:So gerry_g,

What should we be using for back up power when we lose it from the grid ????

Is there anything that us low budget mortals can buy or create somewhat cheaply???



Rick


Any CONVENTIONAL generator(alternator) NOT INVERTER. BTW inverter generators cost MUCH more than conventional generators!) 2000 watts or more. 2000 Watts is overkill, my Pioneer runs fine on an $150 ETC 2000 Watt generator. It has a no name Chinese engine.

I suggest paying more attention to the engine brand than anything else - get a brand name that will likely start when you need it.

Use Stable in your gas and start the generator at least every 3 months to keep the carb clean.
Last edited by gerry_g on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:14 pm

Johnshan wrote:You just told us not to use a conventional (common) generator on your stoves unless we want problems.

Since you didnt publish this fact until after I purchased my stove are you willing to refund my money?


It wasn't addressed to me but there are MANY devices that won't work off of inverter generators. Perhaps the inverter generator manufactures should warn folks???

The cheapest and most common "generators" a actually alternators!
Last edited by gerry_g on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:32 pm

Johnshan wrote:
The idea that you need to purchase a pure sine wave generator to run a stove that costs half as much is ridiculous.


The cheapest generators are true pure sine wave! (Actually they are alternators). Pure sine wave INVERTER generators are VERY expensive.

There seems to be come confusion here:

- Conventional generators (alternators) are pure sine wave and the cheapest!

- Modified sine wave inverters are more expensive but lightweight. A terrible choice for many applications.

- "pure sine wave inverter generators" are the most expensive. They are better than modified sine wave units but still can cause problems with many devices unless significantly over sized.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:37 pm

I'm curious about this too. I was thinking that 100% of generators made pure sine waves. I honestly do not know.

<edit> I just found these remarks online:

If I'm not mistaken, most cheapo gas gensets ARE sinewave.. they don't have much choice but to be sinewave, given that they generate power using a rotor and a coil.. The problem is that they tend to be noisy because of the rotating contacts. This creates hash.. but can mess with hi-tech electronics.

gas generators are real sine wave sources and we have not had any issues with them.

I would recommend using a surge protector with gas generators to protect against really dirty power spikes, but outside of that any ordinary gas generator should be fine.
Last edited by Freddy on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: cmperry On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:44 pm

gerry_g wrote:
Johnshan wrote:You just told us not to use a conventional (common) generator on your stoves unless we want problems.

Since you didnt publish this fact until after I purchased my stove are you willing to refund my money?


It wasn't addressed to me but there are MANY devices that won't work off of inverter generators. Perhaps the inverter generator manufactures should warn folks???

The cheapest "generators" a actually alternators!

Honda states their inverter generators are for home use and include water pumps,furnaces,electronics,microwaves,tv,etc...they describe inverter technology by stating..

"High quality power output"

"The precision of Honda's inverter technology ensures its power is closer to "line power" more than any other generator design. Our inverter generators produce power that is as reliable as the power you get from your outlets at home."
So why would any homeowner think these would not work on their stoves,they will power everything else in the home. I trust Honda and their description and don't for a minute think their the problem.
cmperry
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer 50-93

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: murphyslaw On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:03 pm

No one should relay on one source of heat.

If you have electric baseboard, the power may go out = COLD
are you going to call the mfg and tell them they make a bad product.
If you have nat gas boiler, the power may go out = COLD
You going to call the mfg and tell them they make a bad product.
if you have an oil burner same thing.

some devices don't like certain power signals.

This sounds like it really needs to be directed at col-trol. not LL, they did not build the product that is making theres inoperable.

I have equipment that wont run on any of my 3 generators. But it runs fine off my grid tie inverter. And even my cheap o inverter that I keep in the glove box of the car.
murphyslaw
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: Model 82

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: lizzy49 On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:35 pm

I have a gas generator that I use about two or three times a winter when I lose my power, it runs my refrigerator, freezer, well pump, oilburner, lights in five rooms and my LL stove and I have never had any problems.
lizzy49
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:35 pm

There have been a number of posts buried in other threads regarding issues running off of generator power. There is much confusion regarding this.

To start with, there are several type of "generators" I'll call one "A" and the other "B"

A - Tried and true generators

a1 - a true generator with a light fixed field windings and heavy rotating armature which produces the output. These have brushes contacting the slip rings to conduct the output to stationary outlets. Slip rings are continuous around the armature shaft, no switching occurs such as with a DC generator's commutator.

a2 - Alternators. These have the heavy duty power producing windings stationary and have a rotating light weight field. They can easily be designed with no brushes to wear and are far easier to make since the rotating parts are lightweight.

There are variants of each that use permanent magnets, and variants of each that can have a variable field to automatically regulate voltage.

Type A generators produce very clean sine wave outputs and are pretty resistant to abuse. An undersized unit may drop voltage or stall if long term overloaded.

If any electrical noise exists (other than some worn brush intermittent contact), the noise is created by the load, not the generator.

B - Inverter generators

These have a DC generator or alternator driven by the engine and an inverter (not unlike battery inverters) that produce AC. The types vary by the type of inverter stage.

b1 - "modified sine wave". They are not sine wave at all, just produce rectangular pulses with the peak the same as a sine wave and the average per cycle the same as a sine wave. (not really average, rather RMS fore those knowing what that means). Modified sine wave wave units drive resistive loads (such as standard light bulbs) and universal AC/DC motors well. They also drive switching power supplies (computer) fairly well since these only care about the peak voltage. TV's and monitors may take offense to the electrical noise they create. Many AC only motors (such as blowers) can have difficulty with this wave shape.

b2 - "pure sine wave" - actually an good approximation of a sine wave.

Inverter generators are smaller, lighter and more expensive than conventional generators/alternators. They have some limitations that should be understood.

Most of the rest of this discussion regarding inverter generators also applies to battery powered inverters.

The MOS switching transistors can not handle surges, spikes or out of phase loads well. They have to cut out for their protection if any surge or spike exceeds the MOS transistor's limit. For example, they are very poor at driving switching or feroresonate supplies (such camper converters) unless specifically designed for such usage. UPS inverters for computers are specifically designed with high peak surge capability.

Inverter generators are often less able to handle spikes or surges. They also are generally less able to handle phase surge current due to a fan motor being out of phase due to slip. Thus oversize if used.

How does this affect coal stoves with electronics or fans?

First, the power cord for ANY generator must be fairly heavy duty. They are generally long and folks often plug extra stuff in.

If the extra stuff produces surges or spikes, the generator output will be distorted at load side in particular. Inverter generators are usually more affected at the generator itself due to very lightweight armatures (little mechanical energy storage) and MOS transistor limitations.

Electronic speed controls (including Coal-trol) are sensitive to how clean the AC is. They count of the shape of the waveform to some degree. Forget using modified sine wave inverter generators!

Conventional generators/alternators are always a wise choice. They are rugged and squelch surges/spikes and out of phase current well.

Sine wave inverter generators generally should be noticeably over sized since most are less tolerant of surges/spikes than conventional units.

With any generator remember one usually keeps the generator outdoors! This means DON'T use a light duty extension cord. (common homeowner outdoor cords are 16 gauge!)

Before blaming ANY electronic device operating on generator, look over the variables in the supply and other loads. Small generators are not as "stiff" as the power grid.
Last edited by gerry_g on Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: 009to090 On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:58 pm

Gerry, thanks for the confirmation. Very informative :up: :nice:
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:18 pm

I've not tried to run my stoker with my Generac 4000 though I'll say I built a mini dune buggy having a MIG wire feed 125 Amp welder plugged into that generator amps, the welded is happy after all these years, it has a fan and some pretty sensitive microchips.
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:20 pm

gerry_g,

First off, I forgot to welcome you to the forum. Your input on these generator issues has helped a lot.


Now, where do we look to find out what is making our gas engine generated power ?? Most ads only list the engine and output maximum values and not how the power is created.




Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: CoaLen On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:21 pm

Thank you Gerry! Very good.
This is definitely getting bookmarked to my control panel.
-Len
CoaLen
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Coal Size/Type: rice

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