Running off of generators or inverters

Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:22 pm

Uglysquirrel wrote:I've not tried to run my stoker with my Generac 4000 though I'll say I built a mini dune buggy having a MIG wire feed 125 Amp welder plugged into that generator amps, the welded is happy after all these years, it has a fan and some pretty sensitive microchips.


And a MIG welder is designed for the extreme electrical noise an arc welder produces. You can be sure it was designed to protect the sensitive stuff.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: cmperry On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:30 pm

Gerry, thanks for the info,if I wanted to oversize an inverter generator for a Hyfire 2 how many watts would you recommend. Thanks again, it's starting to make sense now
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:35 pm

Rick 386 wrote:gerry_g,
Now, where do we look to find out what is making our gas engine generated power ?? Most ads only list the engine and output maximum values and not how the power is created.
Rick


Thanks for the welcome.

Inverter generators will always be so marked. Heck they are the latest and greatest. (??? re greatest)

Sine wave inverter generators will be so marked. There are a very few "stepped approximation" units that are not clean sine waves. Just stay away from el-cheapo Chinese inverter units.

If a conventional unit says "brush less" you know it is an alternator. The reverse is usually but not always true. The biggest issue with brushes is the springs corroding over years with little usage.

At least it is simple to tell inverter units from conventional ones.

gerry
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:49 pm

Uglysquirrel wrote:I've not tried to run my stoker with my Generac 4000 though I'll say I built a mini dune buggy having a MIG wire feed 125 Amp welder plugged into that generator amps, the welded is happy after all these years, it has a fan and some pretty sensitive microchips.


One more note - you used the word "years" and "4000". That pretty much indicates a conventional generator/alternator which tend to be clean and rugged.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:10 pm

Thank you, gerry_g . I was going to start another thread and re-post this info as I get time( now I guess I don't need to ) it is very informative .
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:13 pm

cmperry wrote:Gerry, thanks for the info,if I wanted to oversize an inverter generator for a Hyfire 2 how many watts would you recommend. Thanks again, it's starting to make sense now


I was afraid someone would ask something like this! I don't know all the specs involved to give an honest answer. Will you be tempted to plug something else in?

I've seen a lot of inverter generators as I have camped (we usually dry camp). Folks with 1000W units tend to fire their temper. Folks with 2000W units tend to be happy campers. Those with 2600+ watt units can keep their cool with the camper's AC. Heck, even pop ups have roof ACs these days.

Except for weight and size, I personally prefer brushless conventional units. They are a lot cheaper as well.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: SMITTY On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:26 am

Another unrelated factor that sways alot of people to the more expensive units is noise. As price goes up, noise goes down in lock-step. Cheap = loud, Expensive = quiet.

These days -- at least in my neck of the woods -- that's all anyone cares about. That will play a huge factor in someones purchase if they live near me.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: Yanche On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:12 am

This is a question for gerry_g .... Let's assume we have an inverter type power source, one that produces the poorest non-sinewave output waveshape. Is it possible to design a passive filter that would clean up the spikes, waveform irregularities, etc? It seems to me such a filter would then allow motors to be successfully run from inverter sources. The filter that would dissipate all the higher than fundamental frequencies and not the motor. My limited understand of the details was that the motor was attempting to run at multiple speeds, speeds corresponding the the harmonic frequencies produced by the square or rectangular waveshape. Something the motor can't do. That energy was dissipated in the motor windings causing hum and heat. Is there more to it?
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:30 am

SMITTY wrote:Another unrelated factor that sways alot of people to the more expensive units is noise. As price goes up, noise goes down in lock-step. Cheap = loud, Expensive = quiet.

These days -- at least in my neck of the woods -- that's all anyone cares about. That will play a huge factor in someones purchase if they live near me.


I've made several referenced to camping. Noise is a major issue there along with weight. Noise is a very interesting topic.

Many inverter generators are 2 stroke (oil mix with gas is the way to tell), many are 4 stroke. Both types claim to be low noise, however the two stroke versions produce a much higher pitch that can be very annoying even if measured as quieter.

Lower noise with an inverter generator is often because they are used at far below rated output and the engine throttle down. An advantage of inverter generators is they can slow down under light loads without affecting the frequency or voltage output. Conventional generators need to operate at constant speed to maintain frequency. They can regulate voltage independent of speed.

Conventional generators can be made just as quiet. The manufacturers just need spend a couple extra dollars on the muffler.

My conventional Yamaha 5200 Watt generator is FAR less annoying than almost any 2 stroke 1000 Watt inverter generator! Yamaha just put a decent muffler on it.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: scotty On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:00 am

I have everything electronic pluged into a surge protector ,including my stove. I haven't really had to run on genereator power.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: SMITTY On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:02 am

gerry_g wrote:Many inverter generators are 2 stroke (oil mix with gas is the way to tell), many are 4 stroke. Both types claim to be low noise, however the two stroke versions produce a much higher pitch that can be very annoying even if measured as quieter.

I always thought it was the other way around -- when the big 4 started changing all their dirtbikes to 4-strokes, we noticed more noise complaints because the deep sound of the 4-stroke penetrated everything .... where the more "tinny" sounding 2-stroke wouldn't be heard ... and definitely not felt .... with the windows shut.

My EF not only has a muffler fit for a small car, but it also has acoustical foam glued to each of the 4 panels which completely enclose the engine. If I remove just one panel, the sound increase is very noticable.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: WNY On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:27 am

My keystoker 90K DV works fine off the Homelite 3500W, not buzzing or strange sounds (no Coaltrol). Need to try the LL with the CoalTrol next
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:33 pm

scotty wrote:I have everything electronic pluged into a surge protector ,including my stove. I haven't really had to run on genereator power.


Any surges mentioned regarding generators are current surges and usually cause a distorted voltage waveform, "Surge protectors" are intended to prevent damage to severe voltage surges due to events such as lightning strikes. They simply absorb voltage spikes, do nothing related to noise or "unclean" power.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:36 pm

SMITTY wrote:
gerry_g wrote:Many inverter generators are 2 stroke (oil mix with gas is the way to tell), many are 4 stroke. Both types claim to be low noise, however the two stroke versions produce a much higher pitch that can be very annoying even if measured as quieter.

I always thought it was the other way around -- when the big 4 started changing all their dirtbikes to 4-strokes, we noticed more noise complaints because the deep sound of the 4-stroke penetrated everything .... where the more "tinny" sounding 2-stroke wouldn't be heard ... and definitely not felt .... with the windows shut.
noticable.


Dirt bikes and many motor cycles often have almost no muffler. The "sound" is part of the "thrill". Lower frequencies are also harder to muffle. Perhaps some of the problem is distance. Higher frequencies are more easing attenuated by foliage and the like. When camping one is often pretty near the generator. I did qualify the statement with "can" since there are exceptions.
Last edited by gerry_g on Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Running off of generators or inverters

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:20 pm

Yanche wrote:This is a question for gerry_g .... Let's assume we have an inverter type power source, one that produces the poorest non-sinewave output waveshape. Is it possible to design a passive filter that would clean up the spikes, waveform irregularities, etc? It seems to me such a filter would then allow motors to be successfully run from inverter sources. The filter that would dissipate all the higher than fundamental frequencies and not the motor.


No, in a practical sense. Even passive power conditioners are designed to solve a specific problem for a specific type of load - see below.

Yanche wrote: My limited understand of the details was that the motor was attempting to run at multiple speeds, speeds corresponding the the harmonic frequencies produced by the square or rectangular waveshape. Something the motor can't do. That energy was dissipated in the motor windings causing hum and heat. Is there more to it?


You run into a real problem here. Most AC and all shaded pole speed reduced motors have "slip" - rotate slower than the supplied AC frequency. Motors also act as generators at whatever speed they are currently rotating and may reverse feed (yes, the supply may need to absorb power from the load if maintaining a sine wave is desired) Or the motor may present an surge load. Thus causes current surges at frequencies below nominal 60HZ. The source must have enough guts to absorb any such surges which are NOT a harmonic of the supply and a lower frequency than the supply's fundamental frequency! If your blower is running at 20% speed, you have to deal with a 12Hz component!

These are some of the reasons I often state you need a "stiff" supply (maybe over sized) and not to use light gauge long power cords.
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