Generator issues?

Please be aware

PostBy: cmperry On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:00 pm

I would like to advise everyone who may be depending on their stove for heat during a power outage that your stove may not work properly with certain generators. I think it is important for people to read the "Econo Stove Blower Problems" thread to prevent any surprises that may occur during a power outage
cmperry
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer 50-93

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: Johnshan On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:52 pm

I've got news for you, 99% of generators out there do not produce a pure sine wave. Is this a stove problem or a generator issue? Lets be real here.

I am also depending on my coal stove for heat and have a 2 year old in the house, if the power goes out I am screwed. Thanks LL for informing me of this problem when I researched your stove for purchase.

Maybe theres a reason for the 90 day warranty and the warning not to depend on this as your sole source of heat in their manuals.
Johnshan
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Econo

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: k9 Bara On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:38 pm

Johnshan wrote:I am also depending on my coal stove for heat and have a 2 year old in the house, if the power goes out I am screwed. Thanks LL for informing me of this problem when I researched your stove for purchase.



Does the toilet paper company wipe your ass? C'mon, You've been beating up LL in both threads. Im in the same boat, 11mos baby in the house. I figured out a work around before my heating season. It was up to me to protect and provide for my family. It is frustrating when things don't go perfect, I understand. But from what I've seen on the boards here, I think they have tried very hard to help you. Maybe I missed a thread or 2 that would help me understand better but I read the board several times a day.
k9 Bara
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM
Coal Size/Type: Rice Anthricite

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: SMITTY On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:42 pm

I agree ...... don't beat up on the Leisure Line guys. They are working extremely hard with a company they just purchased, and yet they still take the time to field concerns. I understand your frustration, but cut them a little slack. If they find a solution, I'm sure you;ll be the first to know. They're trying their best! Put yourself in their shoes ...... I know I couldn't handle the pressure!
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:52 pm

SMITTY wrote:I would also like to add a question about this: http://www.yamahamotorsports.com/outdoo ... /home.aspx

It has a Pure Sine Wave (Pulse Width Modulation) Inverter System. I don't run multiple motors since I have a hand-fired, but bought this due to voltage spikes I got with a Chinese gen-set when both legs were imbalanced (fried a ballast & motion light).

I basically bought it for longevity & the fact that it's 64db at full throttle .... the inverter part was an added bonus.


That a EF6300iSDE, a 6300 Watt generator! Enough overkill to soak up any current transients these stoves will produce. Also a darned expensive generator!
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: cmperry On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:55 pm

This thread wasn't started to be a beat on session but to make people aware that there may be issues during power outages when using their stove with a generator. The discussion was buried in the thread called econoline blower problem (??) I think everyone has a right to know so they can plan accordingly and thats the purpose of this thread. I do like my stove and I hope a solution to this problem can be figured out.
cmperry
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer 50-93

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: cmperry On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:59 pm

gerry_g wrote:
SMITTY wrote:I would also like to add a question about this: http://www.yamahamotorsports.com/outdoo ... /home.aspx

It has a Pure Sine Wave (Pulse Width Modulation) Inverter System. I don't run multiple motors since I have a hand-fired, but bought this due to voltage spikes I got with a Chinese gen-set when both legs were imbalanced (fried a ballast & motion light).

I basically bought it for longevity & the fact that it's 64db at full throttle .... the inverter part was an added bonus.


That a EF6300iSDE, a 6300 Watt generator! Enough overkill to soak up any current transients these stoves will produce. Also a darned expensive generator!

If you oversize the inverter generator will these problems be avoided?
cmperry
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer 50-93

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: cmperry On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:00 pm

Like buy a 4-5000 watt instead of say a 2000 watt?
cmperry
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer 50-93

Re: Please be aware

PostBy: cmperry On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:14 pm

Freddy wrote:I'm curious about this too. I was thinking that 100% of generators made pure sine waves. I honestly do not know.

<edit> I just found these remarks online:

If I'm not mistaken, most cheapo gas gensets ARE sinewave.. they don't have much choice but to be sinewave, given that they generate power using a rotor and a coil.. The problem is that they tend to be noisy because of the rotating contacts. This creates hash.. but can mess with hi-tech electronics.

gas generators are real sine wave sources and we have not had any issues with them.

I would recommend using a surge protector with gas generators to protect against really dirty power spikes, but outside of that any ordinary gas generator should be fine.

from what I understand this is just a problem with the inverter type generators
cmperry
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer 50-93

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: SMITTY On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:37 pm

gerry_g wrote:Also a darned expensive generator!

It sure is ... but I got a deal on it I couldn't pass up. Almost 50% off what I would have paid locally. 8-)

I had no idea the size played a major factor in motor issues. So far I haven't had any motor issues with either end of the cost spectrum regarding generators. I've been watching this thread closely, as I'm curious as to whether this is a gen issue, or not .... time will tell.
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:44 pm

cmperry wrote:
gerry_g wrote:
Johnshan wrote:You just told us not to use a conventional (common) generator on your stoves unless we want problems.

Since you didnt publish this fact until after I purchased my stove are you willing to refund my money?


It wasn't addressed to me but there are MANY devices that won't work off of inverter generators. Perhaps the inverter generator manufactures should warn folks???

The cheapest "generators" a actually alternators!

Honda states their inverter generators are for home use and include water pumps,furnaces,electronics,microwaves,tv,etc...they describe inverter technology by stating..

"High quality power output"

"The precision of Honda's inverter technology ensures its power is closer to "line power" more than any other generator design. Our inverter generators produce power that is as reliable as the power you get from your outlets at home."
So why would any homeowner think these would not work on their stoves,they will power everything else in the home. I trust Honda and their description and don't for a minute think their the problem.


Either Honda is stretching the facts (marketing folks are known to do that) or they used unusually heavy duty switching transistors and magnetics and a battery trick noted below.

I'm also willing to bet they didn't test them (when making this statement) With Mitsubishi inverter mini split variable load air conditioners and many very new variably output gas furnaces with heavy duty inverter driven variable air movers. The very new inverter driven HVAC equipment can put harsh load spikes on the mains.

Cleaner than and alternator? Truly a joke. Common generators (alternators) are as clean as things get sans a alight voltage droop if a very heavy load starts. Alternators with electronic voltage control overcome this at slightly higher cost. I happen to use a Yamaha conventional generator (alternator) with electronic voltage control to power my house during outages.

***A singular sine inverter generator design that DOES excel uses a battery to provide energy as the engine throttles up. These are true marvels, and VERY expensive. They avoid frequency and voltage droop as the engine throttles up.

Similar results can be obtained far cheaper just using a larger conventional alternator. The flywheel effect of a larger engine and alternator will handle heavy surges as well as a battery.

Have you every priced repair costs of Honda inverter generators? Typically 2/3rds the cost of the unit. Ever try to change the oil? They are so compact that access is very difficult. (unless redesigned in that past two years).
Last edited by gerry_g on Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:57 pm

cmperry wrote:Like buy a 4-5000 watt instead of say a 2000 watt?


Yes IF IT IS TRUE SINE WAVE, or buy a conventional generator (alternator) at 1/3 to 1/8th the price of an inverter generator.
Last edited by gerry_g on Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: Yanche On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:39 am

Just so everyone is clear as to what is being said here. Any load on any generator will have some effect on the generator. That effect may or may not be harmful.

There are three classes of home use generators:

A. Inverter
B. Alternator
C. Commutator with brushes

Loads other that resistive, i.e. incandescent will have more effect on the generator. The power factor of the load determines how much of an effect it will have. The ideal power factor is 1.0, resistive. Any other power factor requires the generator to supply more power, the so called imaginary power. It's power that must be generated but can not be used by the load. Over sizing a generator really means sizing the generator to meet the imaginary power load plus the real power load. A motor requires a lot of imaginary power, especially at start up. It's because of all that inductance, windings on a magnetic core. You are trying to change a zero magnetic field to a positive one, which will rotate the motor armature.

Inverter generator have electronics, heavy duty MOS transistors and over current/voltage protection circuitry. One purpose of the protection circuitry is to protect the generator especially the MOS transistors. That's why some forum members have had problems using inverter generators to power their stoker, combustion, exhaust and/or heat distribution motors. The protection circuit in the inverter generator shuts it down. Over-size the generator for the wattage load and it will be more tolerant to the motor loads. The desirable feature of the inverter generator is that it can compensate for the initial droop in output voltage by drawing power from it's battery. The inverter circuity is what changes that DC power into the so called AC output power. It's not a sinewave but it is alternating current (AC). Frequency is set by the electronics.

Alternator generators on the other hand have no inverter electronics, they just have a rotating magnetic field and stationary windings. Turning the generator motor at the proper speed will produce an exact sinewave (no load conditions). Frequency is set by the engine RPM. When a load is applied the output voltage will droop. How much depends on the load, the gauge of the wire in the alternator windings and the time constant of its voltage regulator and/or dynamic engine governor.

Brush type generators have rotors like an automotive starter or the old auto pre-alternator generator. They have brushes. The brush actually bridges more that one winding coil on the rotor. This style of generator is used in the larger whole house engine generator sets. It's more tolerant to large applied loads. Not only because it's larger but also because the rotating armature is bringing new energy as it meets the brushes. A new immediate source of power to prop up the voltage droop due to the applied load. It's not the class of generator you would normally use to power your coal fired appliance.

I've got more to say but I'm tired typing. More later.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Econo Stove Blower Problems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:18 pm

Yanche wrote:Just so everyone is clear as to what is being said here. Any load on any generator will have some effect on the generator. That effect may or may not be harmful.

There are three classes of home use generators:

A. Inverter
B. Alternator
C. Commutator with brushes


A better list:

A Inverter generators
a1 - modified sine wave
a2 - stepped sine wave approximation
a3 - pure sine wave approximation

B Brushless alternators
b1 - permanent magnet field
b2 - field magnetization controlled by current magnetically induced and can support voltage regulation

C Generators with brushes
c1 - commutator with brushes, produce DC
c2 - Slip rings used with brushes, Produce AC (I omitted this older design in my previous comments, MY BAD)

Generators have a stationary field and rotating armature. The field is fairly light. The heavy armature (power generating) coils rotate.

- slip ring designs produce AC - (probably the "original" AC generator)
- commutator designs produce DC, The commutator constantly switches what winding is connected to the output.

Alternators have a rotating field (lightweight) and the power producing windings are stationary. Much more common these days due to far lighter weight and less material.

It's not just power factor, supplied power or loads may have switching distortion (often called harmonic distortion) distorted supply voltage (even if caused by that load) can affect the source or load adversely. Both PF and distortion cause imaginary power. The current associated with imaginary power cause real resistive loss in all conductors. This loss is "real power" and heats the conductors involved (supply or load) The current involved with imaginary power is REAL, heats things and can trip breakers or overload MOS switching transistors.

Distorted voltage waveforms can confuse many electronic controls and other devices.

Many low cost inverter generators do not produce sine wave output. This can really affect electrical controls and shorten life of motors.

Upper end alternates vary the field to keep the voltage regulated. Both inverter and alternator "generators" generally have engine sag when a heavy load is turned on. A few expensive inverter generators (usually lower power units) use a battery to supply energy until the engine recovers.

AC generators (not alternators) do not bridge or switch windings . The slip ring is continuously connected to a single winding via brushes. Slip ring brush generators produce clean AC and the heavy rotating armature stores mechanical energy which helps the generator absorb surges. They still are made but generally are much heavier than alternators.

The word "alternator" is rarely used for home "generators" Both alternators and AC generators are still on that market and both work well. Material cost and weight favor alternator designs. Lables rarely tell you which design it is.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Generator issues?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:16 pm

We are trying to get more information on this issue . Please if you have a generator and have had issues that affect operation on LL models running a CoalTrol . As far as we know it is not a widespread issue . I ask if you have experienced issues post brand and model of generator ,how old how often you use it . We would like to get as much of the facts as possible . Please no off topic posts or rants just Facts . Also please feel free to post success stories as well with the types of generator . Thanks ,Dave
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Visit Leisure Line Stove