The sooner the better....

Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: New Hope Engineer On: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:26 am

coaledsweat wrote:
topper wrote:we must figure out a way (reasonable or otherwise) to control health care costs - if we don't figure that out all other health care issues are secondary.

The number one problem with healthcare costs is obesity. The average obese person has a very high rate of heart disease, lung problems, diabetes and on and on and on compared to the normal weighted individual. That seems to me to be why healthcare costs are spiraling, it is just following the trend of a fattened up nation. Start charging insurance by body mass index and the troubles should straighten out in a hurry. Who knows, it may even drive down healthcare costs.

so i should pay more since i weigh more then the next guy? i dont think so!
New Hope Engineer
 
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:14 pm

New Hope Engineer wrote:
coaledsweat wrote:
topper wrote:we must figure out a way (reasonable or otherwise) to control health care costs - if we don't figure that out all other health care issues are secondary.

The number one problem with healthcare costs is obesity. The average obese person has a very high rate of heart disease, lung problems, diabetes and on and on and on compared to the normal weighted individual. That seems to me to be why healthcare costs are spiraling, it is just following the trend of a fattened up nation. Start charging insurance by body mass index and the troubles should straighten out in a hurry. Who knows, it may even drive down healthcare costs.

so i should pay more since i weigh more then the next guy? i dont think so!

Read my next post.
coaledsweat
 
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: New Hope Engineer On: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:01 am

[/quote]
Read my next post.[/quote]
doh! :oops: ill go back and sit on the bench. ;)
New Hope Engineer
 
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:52 am

Tort reform is a phony, trumped-up answer, inflated blimp-size by the GOP.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/164406.php

The only thing it works at doing is limiting the right of the injured to the recovery they deserve for the injuries they sustained.
stockingfull
 
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:55 pm

stockingfull wrote:The only thing it works at doing is limiting the right of the injured to the recovery they deserve for the injuries they sustained.


What is a life or a limb worth? How do you determine what they "deserve"? Is it measured by the depth of the defendant's pockets or the economic value of the plaintiff? Or both?

I am sure in your business you and another lawyer, or a jury, have had to put a figure on those kinds of things once or twice. How do you argue that? Are all the awards the same? Or, is one person's injury or death worth more than another?

If the awards vary because of a person's worth, why does everyone have a right to the same quality medical care under Obamacare?
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:04 am

stockingfull wrote:Tort reform is a phony, trumped-up answer, inflated blimp-size by the GOP.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/164406.php

The only thing it works at doing is limiting the right of the injured to the recovery they deserve for the injuries they sustained.


How about injuries they DIDN'T sustain? What can we do about that?
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 pm

The answer, to both of you, is the common sense of our founding fathers in establishing the system of due process and juries of our peers.

Mike, how much must I offer you for one of your limbs, removed traumatically and without notice to you? (You don't get to pick when or which one, BTW.) Care to hazard a number? Not so easy, huh? That's why our founding fathers gave juries the task of weighing the factors.

Once again, you guys love your darling Constitution until it costs you a buck. You guys own insurance stock, or what? Here's the deal: nobody crippled by a product or careless doc, and nobody who's related to or who even knows such a person, thinks saving a penny or two on a healthcare dollar so the risk underwriters for the docs (who just so happen to be the same guys who'll be issuing your health insurance) can limit their exposure and make more profit, is a wise bargain. To the contrary, it's a brazen attempt to seek an outrageous cross-subsidy on completely unrelated set of risks. Where are all the tea bags on that sh!t? :hammer:

Besides -- and here's another Republican favorite point of "federalism" turned around on them -- the tort law is intrinsically reserved to the several states under the Constitution. Oh, I mean except when it gets expensive for the insurance companies you guys worship for some unfathomable reason.... :roll:
stockingfull
 
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:10 pm

To correct your errors, one more time:

1. Insurance companies don't make excessive profits. It's undisputed.

2. Lawsuits, malpractice claims, and defensive medicine costs considerably more that 2%; the costs have been built into the system for over 30 years.

You cited an article from Britain that takes its data for the period 1991 onward and suggests that tort is only 1-2% of medical costs. It ignores the fact that malpractice insurance rose significantly in the seventies to the point of being unobtainable in some states. It rose because of the vast numbers of lawsuits and outrageous awards. To combat that in the short term premiums rose; in the long term defensive medicine and higher fees were required to satisfy insurance companies who otherwise would have had to close their doors or leave certain states (as they did). In other words....the threat of tort and unregulated awards are the problem. :hammer:

3. The last thing a lawyer wants is a jury trial. They are time consuming, expensive and uncertain. They are uncertain because of the fickle will and uncertain emotions of the random juror. It's hilarious to see you heap praise on them when in fact lawyers despise them. If claims were quantified and capped by statute, all health costs would go down by far more than 1-2% because the insurance industry is highly competitive, unlike the legal industry. We would need far fewer lawyers, too.

4. Tort lawyers are greedier than insurance companies and doctors ever dreamed of being. This issue is about you protecting your own "subsidies". You own "stock in yourself" but you need the law in your favor to make money. It's a conflict of interest, is it not? It sounds like your real problem with tort reform is that it would get very expensive for you. 8-)

5. Insurance law is also reserved to the states which is why they received the anti-trust exemption you erroneously love to quote as a source of major profits to insurance companies. The intent of the federal exemption was so that experience data could be shared without breaking the law. The sharing of that data across state lines encouraged competition in other states. That always reduces premiums and risks. Wha? you don't like federalism now? :P



I know you like the emoticons since you use them a lot. I hope you enjoyed them, my young daughter likes them too.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:17 pm

Mike, you're just making this sh!t up again. And in alarming volume.

I don't have time to educate you on your prolix, completely unsupported and baseless statements. Suffice it to say that you're so wrong as to call your cognition into question.
stockingfull
 
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:18 pm

stockingfull wrote:Mike, you're just making this *censored* up again. And in alarming volume.

I don't have time to educate you on your prolix, completely unsupported and baseless statements. Suffice it to say that you're so wrong as to call your cognition into question.



You never have time for the truth but you always have time for a slur.
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: tvb On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:37 pm

stockingfull wrote:Mike, you're just making this *censored* up again. And in alarming volume.

I don't have time to educate you on your prolix, completely unsupported and baseless statements. Suffice it to say that you're so wrong as to call your cognition into question.


Psssst...I think he's like 17 so you need to cut him some slack.
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: tvb On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:43 pm

mikeandgerry wrote: my young daughter likes them too.


Really? You have a young daughter? How would you feel if a doctor did something that disfigured her? Think you shouldn't have the right to sue simply because *censored* happens?

What if some clerk at the insurance company you pay good money to every month denies a medical treatment that a doctor says will save her life? You just going to roll over and tell her that she is going to die next month because the insurance company would prefer that rather than keeping up their end of the contract and you don't have the hundreds of thousands dollars the treatment would cost?
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:05 pm

tvb wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote: my young daughter likes them too.


Really? You have a young daughter? How would you feel if a doctor did something that disfigured her? Think you shouldn't have the right to sue simply because *censored* happens?

What if some clerk at the insurance company you pay good money to every month denies a medical treatment that a doctor says will save her life? You just going to roll over and tell her that she is going to die next month because the insurance company would prefer that rather than keeping up their end of the contract and you don't have the hundreds of thousands dollars the treatment would cost?


LOL -- Is that the knee jerk bleeding heart liberal in you that has spoken and threatened disaster trying to invoke fear in the hearts of Repubicans?

It 's lame. It always has been.

If you would like to back that up a bit and re-start with me on a sane and level footing, I would be happy to engage you. Otherwise, I'll have to dismiss you as just another excitable liberal political hack. I don't have time for two.

Do you care to address the issues with truth or do you wish to incite emotion and change the subject based on unlikely scenarios like Jon? It's your choice.


For the reasoning woman in you:

The problem of rising costs beyond inflation in our health care system is nothing new. It has two drivers. One is advancing technology and its high incremental cost. The other is advocacy without cost recognition.

The problem of technology is inherent to discovery and breakthrough.

The problem of advocacy and cost recognition is a political tool and an emotional one. It pertains to health care delivery and legal advocacy after health care. Jon not-so-eloquently stated that putting a value on life or limb is a hard thing to do yet he and the courts do it everyday and it belies a method. Without a method, there is no equal justice under the law. As for delivery, the cost you cited may be out of reach for many but the existence of a technology that may save a life that is out of reach for someone presents a moral dilemma for you. As liberals like to say so often: "Don't push your morality on me!"

There are other ways to solve the problem besides the knee-jerk emotional ones that only cause more trouble down the road. Society has created insurance. Doctors have created life saving technology. Government has created a legal system to regulate both. The problem is that there is always someone who feels they deserve more and better. There is always someone who feels that the rich are unfairly so. There is always some group that feels the disadvantaged need more and better care. There is always some group that will manipulate the system. As a result, there is a cost-push phenomenon that has been going on for over a century in health care.

Though the following scholarly article published in the American Journal of Economics and Sociology doesn't state it explicitly, it does imply lawyers have been as much of the rising health care cost problem as "greedy" doctors and insurance companies.

Jon won't appreciate this but perhaps you will:



Essentially that article states that medical malpractice has never been "in crisis" because the insurance system has adapted. Malpractice insurance premiums have risen along with increasing physician liability, malpractice claims and awards with long term increases in costs well in excess of inflation.

From the article:

Rising malpractice insurance premiums are caused by a number of factors. However, increased physician liability under medical malpractice law is the primary explanation for the higher premiums. Physician liability has increased since the 1960s because patients began filing more malpractice cases, winning a higher percentage of the cases filed, and receiving ever larger awards from juries for successful malpractice cases.
Last edited by Richard S. on Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: <removed dead link>
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:12 pm

Hey, Mike, let's see you discuss "tort reform" and "death panels" in one paragraph, coherently.

Because you seem to have relapsed into last year's bout of wing-nut diarrhea.
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Re: The sooner the better....

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:19 pm

stockingfull wrote:Hey, Mike, let's see you discuss "tort reform" and "death panels" in one paragraph, coherently.

Because you seem to have relapsed into last year's bout of wing-nut diarrhea.


Hey Jon, let's see if you can just shut up for a while. If you think I run off at the mouth, check your post count.
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