A Possibly Stupid Question About Installing a Baro Damper
-
- Member
- Posts: 6515
- Joined: Sun. Feb. 10, 2008 3:48 pm
- Location: Cape Cod, MA
- Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
- Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove
Just because you could do it does not mean you should do it...
Very big down side to doing it with the stove live...
Mr. Murphy is always lurking...
You could get a Darwin Award...
Very big down side to doing it with the stove live...
Mr. Murphy is always lurking...
You could get a Darwin Award...
- Freddy
- Member
- Posts: 7292
- Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
- Location: Orrington, Maine
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
- Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined
Follow "Fred's rule for doing things in a potentially nasty atmosphere".....that is..... you hold your breath until the job is done. If you can not follow that one simple rule, you need to remove the potentiality of a nasty atmosphere....that is...shut the stove down.
I wouldn't take the chance, only because every time I try something that I think would be 'quick and easy', something always goes wrong or is unexpected, no matter how well we try to anticipate and prepare...
But..
Is it possible to take a big shovel full of lit coal and 'save' or 'preserve it lit' somehow.. like in a small disposable charcoal grill safely parked outside, even with a small fan blowing on it????
If so, then you could let the stove go out, do it safely and correctly taking your time, then get it very quickly started back up... maybe quick enough that with the stove still warm you may not even have trouble getting your draft back..
or not...
Good luck, and be safe.. Have a CO detector nearby... and friend with a working phone!
But..
Is it possible to take a big shovel full of lit coal and 'save' or 'preserve it lit' somehow.. like in a small disposable charcoal grill safely parked outside, even with a small fan blowing on it????
If so, then you could let the stove go out, do it safely and correctly taking your time, then get it very quickly started back up... maybe quick enough that with the stove still warm you may not even have trouble getting your draft back..
or not...
Good luck, and be safe.. Have a CO detector nearby... and friend with a working phone!
- CoalHeat
- Member
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
- Location: Stillwater, New Jersey
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
- Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
- Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
- Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
Sorry, I have to disagree my friend.You don't need a damper in a coal stove situation.
The chimney my Harman hand-fed is connected to will draft up to -.13" WC, I have verified this with my manometer. without a baro damper installed the chimney provides a consistent draft that is much higher then what a hand-fed appliance calls for, even with the air intake set lower. The end result is much shorter burn times, the inability to control the heat output of the stove, and most of the heat from the coal going up the chimney. Before I installed the baro and a clean out tee on the outlet of the stove I was using 90* elbows, the kind made in sections so as to be adjustable. The elbows got so hot that the joints expanded and products of combustion began leaking out, even with the high draft.
True, baro dampers can be dangerous if both wood and coal are burned in the same stove consistently, they will fuel a chimney fire, I don't burn wood in the Harman, I have a wood burning insert for that.
The Alaska stoker also is connected to a chimney that is capable of producing a high draft, recently I felt the stove was not producing the amount of heat it used to, so I connected the manometer and found the draft was set too high. I adjusted the baro and now I am getting more heat once again.
All this has been covered in other threads devoted specifically to this topic.
When I posted this, I was pretty sure that it was too stupid to do it, and didn't think anyone at all would even be half-willing to concede such a thing could work. Surprisingly there are a few who have expressed that they would do it or proposed that there may be ways to try reducing the inconvenience.
There is even some discussion about the effects of whether a baro damper would help in my problems with getting a decent bit of heat out of the stove (oddly enough, woke up this morning with an outdoor temp reading of 7*, and my stove was barely at 200*...no wind causing low draft? It was frigid cold out but no wind, which is unusual for my hill location).
It's great that there are some discussions and information to be gleaned even from a question like this.
There is even some discussion about the effects of whether a baro damper would help in my problems with getting a decent bit of heat out of the stove (oddly enough, woke up this morning with an outdoor temp reading of 7*, and my stove was barely at 200*...no wind causing low draft? It was frigid cold out but no wind, which is unusual for my hill location).
It's great that there are some discussions and information to be gleaned even from a question like this.
Even though coal stove manufacturers mention using a baro in their manuals (what do they know) I think we should give up on convincing him about the baro for now and concentrate on changing his mind about how he ignores the CO alarm while sleeping (while there is still time)!Wood'nCoal wrote:Sorry, I have to disagree my friend.You don't need a damper in a coal stove situation.
GeorgiePorgie wrote:I haven't and will not use any barometric damper on any wood or coal stove, oil fired stove, now that's a different story !
And as long as I see flames, I wouldn't worry about carbon monoxide detector reading, I have slept in an area, where the carbon monoxide detector was beeping all night, the neighbors wanted me to call the fire department, as it turned out, some of these carbon monoxide detectors are too sensitive ( which is not a bad thing ) , but the mere presence of a flame, simply indicates that any carbon monoxide being formed, is also being burnt as well, and if you have the stove hooked up without the barometric damper, it's one less reason for any gases to get back into the house.
Just my opinion, and I am sure many will disagree with me.
- CoalHeat
- Member
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
- Location: Stillwater, New Jersey
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
- Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
- Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
- Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert
What thread is this quote posted in? I must have missed this.GeorgiePorgie wrote:I haven't and will not use any barometric damper on any wood or coal stove, oil fired stove, now that's a different story !
And as long as I see flames, I wouldn't worry about carbon monoxide detector reading, I have slept in an area, where the carbon monoxide detector was beeping all night, the neighbors wanted me to call the fire department, as it turned out, some of these carbon monoxide detectors are too sensitive ( which is not a bad thing ) , but the mere presence of a flame, simply indicates that any carbon monoxide being formed, is also being burnt as well, and if you have the stove hooked up without the barometric damper, it's one less reason for any gases to get back into the house.
Just my opinion, and I am sure many will disagree with me.
CO can be burned?but the mere presence of a flame, simply indicates that any carbon monoxide being formed, is also being burnt as well,
A correctly installed baro damper will not allow the gases to reverse flow and enter the living space.and if you have the stove hooked up without the barometric damper, it's one less reason for any gases to get back into the house.
- wlape3
- Member
- Posts: 2553
- Joined: Mon. Jan. 12, 2009 7:38 pm
- Location: Delanson, NY transitioning to SE Mass
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Alaska 140 Auger
- Coal Size/Type: Rice
- Other Heating: Propane
Yes, CO can be burned, further oxidized to CO2. CO is produced in the absence of sufficient oxygen for complete combustion. Some CO is always produced in the burning process due to a variety of reasons but not having enough air available will definitely increase it.Wood'nCoal wrote:CO can be burned?
A correctly installed baro damper will not allow the gases to reverse flow and enter the living space.
I agree. A well installed baro will not allow gases back into the living space. It should be leveled to allow the flapper to swing freely.
- SMITTY
- Member
- Posts: 12496
- Joined: Sun. Dec. 11, 2005 12:43 pm
- Location: West-Central Mass
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 Highboy
- Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
- Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler
I was always taught that CO is unburnt fuel in regards to engines. Exhaust gas testers that read high CO levels pointed to either too rich carburetion (too much fuel), or weak spark.
I wish I could afford one .... I'd be using it on the stove!
I wish I could afford one .... I'd be using it on the stove!
Well, contrary to the image that most people probably got of me in posting this question, I'm not a complete moron. I wouldn't have ended up doing the switch while it was still lit because the T joint is longer than the straight joint I already had in place, meaning things had to be rearranged and hot stoves aren't wise to move around the house...believe me if I were doing something as reckless as changing the pipes out on a lit stove, I'd be far more paranoid about extra precautions like measuring things out and planning ahead, since I already knew that if something went really wrong I'd have a lit CO generator in my basement.
Anyway, it's put out, and my father and I worked on getting the pipe fit in. We had to take the stove off the blocks that raised it 4" off the floor to get the T to fit into the elbows, and I leveled the baro damper. I emptied all the coals and ash, trying to save whatever looked like could still be burned.
I then threw in one metric crap-ton of charcoal and got it burning and am in the process of adding coal on to form a hot bed. The damper, set to the .2 (.02?) setting on the weights, barely moves at all. Good or bad? I don't know. Weather says it's tranquil ~27 degrees out, not much wind (weird for where I'm located on a hill), and the only thing that went off was the smoke alarm (also not far from the CO alarm) when I lit the metric crap-ton of charcoal with approximate one metric kilocrap of lighter fluid (warning...big puff of smoke can cause eye irritation).
Looks like the coal is lighting, for now. Heating up the stove's firebox quickly, but nothing's glowing (on the firebox, the coals and charcoal are), and I still have a few inches to go to fill the firebrick.
So someone asked me to post how it went, there it is. I've been down here a couple hours throwing more coal on as it creates a hotbed. The joint looks like it's secure enough; the CO alarm hasn't gone off again (it goes off with a warning blip whenever the stove goes out, I'm assuming due to lack of draft at a certain point) so I'm thinking the baro and/or pipe fitting joints aren't leaking CO out. Although I will say I haven't seen the cat in the basement lately. I've been down here since around one or two, it's nearly four now, so that's two to three hours pedaling on a recumbent bike about 15 feet from the stove and I'm not dizzy or confused. At least not enough for a lot of typos, I think. If I show signs of it on the forum maybe you people would be in a better position to tell me. Figured I should get exercise since I had to babysit this stove instead of go to the gym for awhile...doctor ordered exercise
Anyway, it's put out, and my father and I worked on getting the pipe fit in. We had to take the stove off the blocks that raised it 4" off the floor to get the T to fit into the elbows, and I leveled the baro damper. I emptied all the coals and ash, trying to save whatever looked like could still be burned.
I then threw in one metric crap-ton of charcoal and got it burning and am in the process of adding coal on to form a hot bed. The damper, set to the .2 (.02?) setting on the weights, barely moves at all. Good or bad? I don't know. Weather says it's tranquil ~27 degrees out, not much wind (weird for where I'm located on a hill), and the only thing that went off was the smoke alarm (also not far from the CO alarm) when I lit the metric crap-ton of charcoal with approximate one metric kilocrap of lighter fluid (warning...big puff of smoke can cause eye irritation).
Looks like the coal is lighting, for now. Heating up the stove's firebox quickly, but nothing's glowing (on the firebox, the coals and charcoal are), and I still have a few inches to go to fill the firebrick.
So someone asked me to post how it went, there it is. I've been down here a couple hours throwing more coal on as it creates a hotbed. The joint looks like it's secure enough; the CO alarm hasn't gone off again (it goes off with a warning blip whenever the stove goes out, I'm assuming due to lack of draft at a certain point) so I'm thinking the baro and/or pipe fitting joints aren't leaking CO out. Although I will say I haven't seen the cat in the basement lately. I've been down here since around one or two, it's nearly four now, so that's two to three hours pedaling on a recumbent bike about 15 feet from the stove and I'm not dizzy or confused. At least not enough for a lot of typos, I think. If I show signs of it on the forum maybe you people would be in a better position to tell me. Figured I should get exercise since I had to babysit this stove instead of go to the gym for awhile...doctor ordered exercise
- coalkirk
- Member
- Posts: 5185
- Joined: Wed. May. 17, 2006 8:12 pm
- Location: Forest Hill MD
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1981 EFM DF520 retired
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Jotul 507 on standby
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite/rice coal
Glad you got in in ok. Never mind the cat. How's the canary? By the way, no one thinks you are a moron for asking a question on this forum. Obvioulsy I don't know you but I think alot of us old timers are paranoid someone will do something reckless, careless or stupid with coal and get hurt. That would really suck and bum out the whole forum. We just didn't want to see you or your family get hurt.bsilver wrote:Although I will say I haven't seen the cat in the basement lately
-
- Member
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Tue. Dec. 09, 2008 8:44 pm
I just love it when All you guys quote what I post, whether you agree or disagree , it's irrelevant, but I love to have a great laugh !
Carbon monoxide detectors manufacturers, prefer to keep the majority of people ignorant and scared about carbon monoxide, they simply want to sell more of those devices, they turn any tragedy into an advertising campain.
Carbon monoxide was used as fuel during WWII, it's also the resulting fuel from wood gasification, when you see orange flames, it's just the indication of carbon monoxide being formed and burnt.
Personally I really feel sorry and sad for the ( more than handfull ) of people who die every year from carbon monoxide poisoning. However, in every one of those incidences, any of you are welcome to investigate, " There was no flame presence " it's usually generators fume, or barbecue charcoal smoldering , or a car idling in a closed area !
Carbon monoxide detectors manufacturers, prefer to keep the majority of people ignorant and scared about carbon monoxide, they simply want to sell more of those devices, they turn any tragedy into an advertising campain.
Carbon monoxide was used as fuel during WWII, it's also the resulting fuel from wood gasification, when you see orange flames, it's just the indication of carbon monoxide being formed and burnt.
Personally I really feel sorry and sad for the ( more than handfull ) of people who die every year from carbon monoxide poisoning. However, in every one of those incidences, any of you are welcome to investigate, " There was no flame presence " it's usually generators fume, or barbecue charcoal smoldering , or a car idling in a closed area !