Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:54 am

Is it time yet ?
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:11 am

That reset button looks to be all rusty & unused & in reality it should have been the most used button for decades. Wouldn`t it be grand if it were as simple as pushing a button.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:29 pm

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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:37 pm

Medicaid does business for far less than 10% admin costs, while the pvt insurers -- with their anti-trust exemption so they can legally price-fix -- have been skimming off upwards of 30%.

Meanwhile, our country is 37th in healthcare outcomes while spending by far the most in the world per capita on health care. And it just so happens that we're the only industrialized country without universal healthcare.

But I'm sure that's just a coincidence; nothing was broken. :roll:

It's astonishing that all you vigilantes have never railed at the robber barons in Hartford who've been raping you for your health insurance for all these years. :idea: Thankfully, the Democrats figured it out and have made a start.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/23/profiles-in-cowardice/?emc=eta1
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:46 pm

stockingfull wrote:But I'm sure that's just a coincidence; nothing was broken. :roll:



Who said it wasn't broken? I think the consensus from anyone you ask about this topic is something needs to be done however this bill is complete trash. It is not REFORM which is what is being sold as. If everyone in the US knew that this is not going to lower the rates or they may be paying more how many do you think would support it?
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:11 am

Have you read the posts above?

mikeandgerry wrote:Nothing was broken....that is, until the dems got a hold of it.


But I'm glad you agree that our system of pvt health insurance is broken. What then would you have done to fix it?
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:58 am

stockingfull wrote:Medicaid does business for far less than 10% admin costs, while the pvt insurers -- with their anti-trust exemption so they can legally price-fix -- have been skimming off upwards of 30%.


And Medicaid is going broke fast.

stockingfull wrote:What then would you have done to fix it?


How about letting consumers buy the insurance that they want, whether its across state lines or not.And how about letting consumers decides what types of coverages they want. Here in Md, the legislature mandates things that must be covered in any policy written in the state. I've got to pay for coverage that includes invitro fertilization, a prety costly procedure that me 57 and my wife 55 don't think we will need any time soon. That's just one example. And how about some tort reform so sleazy lawyers can't make their careers out of suing a doc everytime a baby is born with a problem. Don't misinterpret that to mean that I don't think docs should be held accountable when they screw up.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:14 am

OK, Terry, and how much do you think all that'd save in the overall cost of healthcare in this country? Because, for example, that favorite GOP bogeyman, "tort reform," (a/k/a caps on recovery) is worth, at most, about 2 %.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/164406.php

And, forget the "sleazy lawyers" you so despise, find me a crippled person who thinks recovery limits are a good idea. You won't. Because nobody who's ever been injured by a careless doc (and yes, careless docs do exist) thinks it's a good idea that they should bear the cost of healthcare reform.

You wanna talk about substance? OK, if people are interested in reducing the cost of "defensive medicine," states are free under the House version to explore "alternatives" for reducing litigation costs. You can't cap damages or reduce fees, because the first comes at the expense of the injured and the second kills their ability to sue. But you can have medical panels, for example, define that certain tests can be deemed "adequate" or "sufficient," and that reduction in lab or clinical expense could pay big dividends.

I'll give you a perfect example. A couple years ago, I had blood in my urine. Got sent to a urologist, who did a (very uncomfortable) cystoscopy in his office and found nothing. Then he sent me to the hospital for a scan with contrast and a kidney stone was found. Why couldn't we just have done the scan and skipped the scope? Answer: the doc made a tidy fee for doing that clinical examination in his office.

So, while the docs are screaming at the "sleazy trial lawyers," many of them are milking that cow for all it's worth while they're at it. No surprise that, in states where "tort reform" has been tried, the predicted savings never materialize.

Funny how "death panels" are such an awful idea, yet free passes for bad docs and their underwriters are just fine. :roll:
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:50 pm

stockingfull wrote:OK, Terry, and how much do you think all that'd save in the overall cost of healthcare in this country? Because, for example, that favorite GOP bogeyman, "tort reform," (a/k/a caps on recovery) is worth, at most, about 2 %.


Sorry don't believe that, the cost of litigation would be very hard to determine. For example do those figures include the insurance my mother pays for out of her own pocket as an OB nurse? How about the extra C-Sections that are done because the doctor wants to avoid a possible lawsuit?
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:59 pm

What tort reform numbers do you have, Richard? It's been tried in some states; show me a track record of success.

Look at Texas, which enacted some of the most extensive malpractice reforms in the nation in 2003. The number of lawsuits in the state has fallen by half since then, and malpractice premiums are down 30%. But health-care costs in Texas are still among the highest in the nation and are growing at a faster rate than in most other states. "I think tort reform is a good idea as a carrot to get doctors to go along with more significant health-care reforms," says law professor Charles M. Silver of the University of Texas at Austin. "But as we've proved, it isn't the answer on its own."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_39/b4148030880703.htm

So just how would you move that functional line for the OB's doing those C-sections? What are you going to say to the families who didn't get the procedure and then lost the child, or the mother, or both? To just think of the savings? :whistle:
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: pvolcko On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:00 pm

I'll give you a perfect example. A couple years ago, I had blood in my urine. Got sent to a urologist, who did a (very uncomfortable) cystoscopy in his office and found nothing. Then he sent me to the hospital for a scan with contrast and a kidney stone was found. Why couldn't we just have done the scan and skipped the scope? Answer: the doc made a tidy fee for doing that clinical examination in his office.


Or perhaps the doc did it because of presentation and history/family details. There are other causes for blood in the urine besides kidney stones (UTI, bladder stones, trauma, various cancers and bladder disorders/diseases, etc.), many of which can be treated directly as part of the cystoscopy procedure or at least biopsies and testing are done during a cystoscopy. You were at the office already and if a scan came up negative you'd have to make another appointment, perhaps cause other appointments to be pushed or rescheduled if the problem was considered important enough. And if you started to hemorrhage after being sent away without the scoping having been done you or your insurance company may well have sued him for malpractice.

Or maybe he did perform a medically unwarranted, painful (that laticaine gel doesn't quite do the job, does it), invasive, potentially embarrassing procedure on you, and risk the potential for side effects and mistakes during the procedure itself, just to bill the insurance company. I suppose it is possible. Supposedly doctors routinely amputate feet and extract tonsils for little more justification than mild PPD and a sore throat, the draw of fast, riskless cash at the expense of patient suffering being what it is and all. Doctor needs a new Lexus for the daughter's sweet 16, ya know.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: Yanche On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:23 pm

stockingfull wrote:You wanna talk about substance? OK, if people are interested in reducing the cost of "defensive medicine," states are free under the House version to explore "alternatives" for reducing litigation costs. You can't cap damages or reduce fees, because the first comes at the expense of the injured and the second kills their ability to sue. But you can have medical panels, for example, define that certain tests can be deemed "adequate" or "sufficient," and that reduction in lab or clinical expense could pay big dividends.

I'll give you a perfect example. A couple years ago, I had blood in my urine. Got sent to a urologist, who did a (very uncomfortable) cystoscopy in his office and found nothing. Then he sent me to the hospital for a scan with contrast and a kidney stone was found. Why couldn't we just have done the scan and skipped the scope? Answer: the doc made a tidy fee for doing that clinical examination in his office.

So, while the docs are screaming at the "sleazy trial lawyers," many of them are milking that cow for all it's worth while they're at it. No surprise that, in states where "tort reform" has been tried, the predicted savings never materialize.

Funny how "death panels" are such an awful idea, yet free passes for bad docs and their underwriters are just fine. :roll:

As usual my holiday family events brings together women that work in the health care industry. One is a RN head of a womens breast center, another a RN in a colonoscopy surgical specialty and the third owns a contract billing service for doctors. The conversation is aways interesting at least until they get to what I call the blood and guts part of their procedures. This year the topic was largely health care reform. As usually there was bitching about some doctors, especially the ones in it for the money. The end of the year seems to bring the rush to add billable hours. Procedures that have no reasonable expectation to improve or lengthen life. All women had a reduced hour work day on Xmas Eve and a rush to get the procedures done. The breast center nurse has a breast biopsy on a 94 year old woman. The colon center nurse a colonoscopy on a 87 year old woman. Both argued with the doctor about what good the procedure would considering the age of the women? The doctors didn't care and just told them to shut up and do their job. So both did as directed, inflicting unneeded pain on patients for procedures that even if the determination was bad news, nothing could be done about it. Talk about passionate care! The owner of the doctors billing service said it all about meeting the doctor's office yearly billing goals. There seems to be a rush of questionable procedures just before a holiday. The opinion was that holiday time is when the more senior doctors that could overrule a questionable procedure are not present. I don't know what a solution might be, but the current system is not a good one.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: pvolcko On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:46 pm

Tort reform isn't *the* answer in and of itself, no doubt. But nor is a massive shift toward a statist oriented insurance scheme. We have Oregon, Massachusetts, Canada, and any number of other examples to provide ample warning against that as a viable option.
pvolcko
 

Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:41 pm

THE SYSTEM ISN'T BROKEN!

Everyday the US delivers the best health care available to the vast majority of its people with unequaled efficiency and satisfaction at a cost that is accepted freely, albeit indirectly.

US health insurance companies are less profitable than their peer industries and their so-called "anti-trust rule exemption" is not a profit maker for them. They are highly competitive entities in a competitive market in most states. The exemption was created merely to allow them to comply with collusion clauses of anti-trust statutes and maintain the ability to share experience data for the purpose of actuarial study, which ENABLES competititive pricing. Jon Stockingfullofit is a walking liberal talking point on this irrelevant minutiae.

The reason the US is accused of high costs is because in this country the US government and the health care industry inadvertently teamed up to make little hypochondriacs out of the populace. There is no mainstream mother today who hasn't been scared by both into taking their kid for silly "well-baby" check-ups and every case of sniffles that comes down the road. People encourage each other to go to the doctor for all simple maladies because essentially..........HEALTHCARE IS READILY AVAILABLE AND WITHOUT UPFRONT COSTS TO MOST AMERICANS!!!!!! This behavior drives the cost of scarce resources up along with the availability of profitable services. Obviously people want to go and are willing to pay for their unnecessary medical services which places the US unfavorably in comparison with socialized medicine countries where the option to go unnecessarily simply isn't a choice.

Tort issues in decades past contributed to the current high quality factor and the resulting excessive cost of services in order to avoid lawsuits...a point that all liberal lawyers will tell you was a benefit to society....yet now they are on a different bandwagon complaining that costs are high. Go figure. Built in those costs is the exceedingly high cost of malpractice insurance for doctors....thanks to liberal lawyers like Jon Stockingfullofit.

Liberal lawyers and universal health care advocates have preyed upon the good nature of the populace to frighten you into compliance with their desires. They are making money off both relatively minor issues of...first, quality and now, cost. Shame on the serpents.

People, people, people. The system is not broken such that it requires socialization. This entire midnight proposal is a trojan horse by leftists to begin their slow incremental assault on your economic system. Wake up.

If the Democrats wanted to help the poor they could have expanded medicaid. Helping the poor is not their aim. Beware.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:46 pm

pvolcko wrote:
I'll give you a perfect example. A couple years ago, I had blood in my urine. Got sent to a urologist, who did a (very uncomfortable) cystoscopy in his office and found nothing. Then he sent me to the hospital for a scan with contrast and a kidney stone was found. Why couldn't we just have done the scan and skipped the scope? Answer: the doc made a tidy fee for doing that clinical examination in his office.


Or perhaps the doc did it because of presentation and history/family details. There are other causes for blood in the urine besides kidney stones (UTI, bladder stones, trauma, various cancers and bladder disorders/diseases, etc.), many of which can be treated directly as part of the cystoscopy procedure or at least biopsies and testing are done during a cystoscopy. You were at the office already and if a scan came up negative you'd have to make another appointment, perhaps cause other appointments to be pushed or rescheduled if the problem was considered important enough. And if you started to hemorrhage after being sent away without the scoping having been done you or your insurance company may well have sued him for malpractice.

Or maybe he did perform a medically unwarranted, painful (that laticaine gel doesn't quite do the job, does it), invasive, potentially embarrassing procedure on you, and risk the potential for side effects and mistakes during the procedure itself, just to bill the insurance company. I suppose it is possible. Supposedly doctors routinely amputate feet and extract tonsils for little more justification than mild PPD and a sore throat, the draw of fast, riskless cash at the expense of patient suffering being what it is and all. Doctor needs a new Lexus for the daughter's sweet 16, ya know.

1. The cystoscopy wasn't scheduled for at least a week after the intake app't with the urologist.
2. Which of the other possible disorders wouldn't the scan have caught, when it picked up a 2mm stone at my kidney?
3. Are you a urologist, or do you play one on TV?
4. See Yanche's post.
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