Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:53 pm

Just wondering mike, in which country is health care readility avaiable & without upfront costs to most Americans? Why would another country offer that to Americans when we don`t have it in America. Theres a lot that needs to be fixed but first you have to recognize that there is a problem if you can`t do that theres no use for discussion.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:02 pm

samhill wrote:Just wondering mike, in which country is health care readility avaiable & without upfront costs to most Americans? ... Theres a lot that needs to be fixed but first you have to recognize that there is a problem if you can`t do that theres no use for discussion.


The US.

How much did you pay out of pocket at your last doctor's visit? or your last procedure? (exclude co-pays under $50 because if you can't afford that you need to sell the 50" tv or the Harley or drop the cell phone or the cable tv, etc. etc. )

Name the urgent health care system problems that you are concerned about. Then, explain how this health care bill fixes them and how expediently it does it.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:07 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:THE SYSTEM ISN'T BROKEN! ...

Everyday the US delivers the best health care available to the vast majority of its people with unequaled efficiency and satisfaction at a cost that is accepted freely, albeit indirectly. ...

People, people, people. The system is not broken such that it requires socialization. This entire midnight proposal is a trojan horse by leftists to begin their slow incremental assault on your economic system. Wake up.

If the Democrats wanted to help the poor they could have expanded medicaid. Helping the poor is not their aim. Beware.

Beware indeed.

"THE SYSTEM ISN'T BROKEN"? Hey Mike, as one famous liberal recently asked, "On what planet do you spend most of your time?"

As many progressives recently have observed, the net of all this is that the GOP got pretty much what they wanted: a massive mandate for the private coverage market and huge governmental subsidies to add to the pot. But now they get to provide the care, act as the "death panels," and account for the revenues and costs. We'll see how they do.

So, Mike, the "Beware" actually becomes "beware of what you wish for." Because, now that Hartford has become the economic epicenter of healthcare in this country, they'll be responsible for, and for explaining, the results.

As the GOP has discovered since last year, one of the benefits of losing is that you're not responsible for wielding the power you didn't get.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:17 pm

stockingfull wrote:As many on my side have observed, the net of all this is that the GOP got pretty much what they wanted: a massive mandate for the private coverage market and huge governmental subsidies to add to the pot. But now they get to provide the care, act as the "death panels," and account for the revenues and costs. We'll see how they do.

So, Mike, the "Beware" actually becomes "beware of what you wish for." Because, now that Hartford has become the economic epicenter of healthcare in this country, they'll be responsible for, and for explaining, the results.

As the GOP has discovered since last year, one of the benefits of losing is that you're not responsible for wielding the power you didn't get.


I live on earth but you must live in Terrabithia. It's just amazing how in that mind of yours the the minority Republicans are somehow already culpable of all future failures of this proposed health care legislation. It's also just amazing how the Republicans can be so cunning and manipulative of the innocent Democrats when they aren't even in the negotiating room!
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:36 pm

Simple, Mike. There aren't any easy answers (like "tort reform") which will solve our problems. So the GOP, as the party of "simple(tons)" found no country to invade, or "Patriot Act," to "fix" the problem.

Besides, with the likes of Mary, Blanche, Joe and Ben, in the end, all that were left were the Republican "reform" ideas, like a "Full-Employment Act" for the Connecticut insurance oligarchy. :roll:

You think it's not a Republican bill? Where's the single payer? Where's the public option? Where's the expanded Medicare? What principle left in the Senate bill does the GOP not support?

They didn't vote for it for two reasons: (1) like you, some of them think the ship isn't sinking :what: , and, much more importantly, (2) they want "deniability" when pvt-insurance-based "reform" turns out to be a bust.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:44 am

stockingfull wrote:What tort reform numbers do you have, Richard?


What I'm suggesting is this would be hard to give a number for, in any event 2% would be more than this bill does. ;) If you have a bad tire on your car because of a poor alignment, low air and other things you don't just put a new tire on it to fix it. You attack all the reasons why the tire went bad, the same thing needs to be done with health care. Least that is the way I fix things, fix it once and fix it right.



SWhat are you going to say to the families who didn't get the procedure and then lost the child, or the mother, or both? To just think of the savings?


I'm not talking about savings, I'm talking about doctors taking the sledge hammer approach and performing procedures based on potential litigation instead of what their medical training tells them to do.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:00 am

Richard, for somebody who's known here for both attention to detail and posting supporting authority, the weakness of that response is telling. :verycool:
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:29 am

I don't think it's weak at all stockingfull, you can certainly quantify costs of things based on numbers that are available but it's the unknown factor where you are going to run into problems.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:30 am

Well mike, just to answer a few of your questions not that its any of your business but here goes. I didn`t pay anything for my last doctors visit, you see because I served this country I can go to the V.A. clinic. If it wasn`t for that I would have to pay 100% until I reached my $1,000 deductable then after I`ve paid that it would be $20 co-pay. Thats what we pay for my wife being she`s not a vet. I haven`t had a motorcycle since my late 20s, a old 20" tv, I have to dish because of where I live theres no cable service & we can`t get anything without putting up a tower to get an antenna above the tree line, because of where I live I do have a cell thats a bit spotty as far as service but its more for safety than anything. My previous wife passed away from uterin cancer which I believe would have been caught & prevented if the Ins. co. wouldn`t have denied her a hysterectomy saying that they deemed her too young even after her doc requested it & she had already been thru menopause. So you see mike not everyone that has a health ins. mega plan for free( I forgot to mention I pay very near $500/mo. for mine) & I feel lucky to have it & the fact that so far I can still afford it. As for your quick fix there is no instant gradification, everything takes time one of the country`s biggest problems IMO is that most people expect anything they want right now. Its been over 70 years of election promises not fulfilled & over 70 years of ins. lobbyists allowed to get more powerful & a bunch of Republicans publicly vowing to fight everything THIS Pres. wants & you want everything you want NOW. Maybe in your perfect world, good luck.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:18 pm

samhill wrote:Well mike, just to answer a few of your questions not that its any of your business but here goes. I didn`t pay anything for my last doctors visit, you see because I served this country I can go to the V.A. clinic. If it wasn`t for that I would have to pay 100% until I reached my $1,000 deductable then after I`ve paid that it would be $20 co-pay. Thats what we pay for my wife being she`s not a vet. I haven`t had a motorcycle since my late 20s, a old 20" tv, I have to dish because of where I live theres no cable service & we can`t get anything without putting up a tower to get an antenna above the tree line, because of where I live I do have a cell thats a bit spotty as far as service but its more for safety than anything. My previous wife passed away from uterin cancer which I believe would have been caught & prevented if the Ins. co. wouldn`t have denied her a hysterectomy saying that they deemed her too young even after her doc requested it & she had already been thru menopause. So you see mike not everyone that has a health ins. mega plan for free( I forgot to mention I pay very near $500/mo. for mine) & I feel lucky to have it & the fact that so far I can still afford it. As for your quick fix there is no instant gradification, everything takes time one of the country`s biggest problems IMO is that most people expect anything they want right now. Its been over 70 years of election promises not fulfilled & over 70 years of ins. lobbyists allowed to get more powerful & a bunch of Republicans publicly vowing to fight everything THIS Pres. wants & you want everything you want NOW. Maybe in your perfect world, good luck.



So if it isn't my business, why did you tell me?

Answer: To tug at my heartstrings to make me feel guilty and explain why I should pay for your medical expenses. In other words, you very much would like to make it my business!

If you think that isn't what this bill is about...think again. It's you (and others like you) taking my money for your problems because you see that I have my problems solved and you are envious. You have decided that you can use your mob influence (the democrat party) to tyrannize me indirectly (and others like me) by violating the spirit of the Constitution which is, among other things, to prevent the tyranny of the majority, the tyranny of the wealthy, and the tyranny of the government. What YOU want is to create YOUR perfect world.

This bill is charity at best and socialism at worst. Remember that always.

I never said health care was free (nor should it be). I said there are no up front costs. In other words, You won't be denied basic life sustaining treatment for lack of cash up front. If you felt that your previous wife was a victim of malpractice then see someone like Jon (Stockingfull) who will be your advocate in your claim. If the claim has merit, you will prevail.

Health care is not a right. Just because Cadillacs and caviar exists, doesn't mean that everyone has a right to them without paying for them. Same is true for health care. The aim of the left is to deny the wealthy premium care and tax them heavily in order to make health care affordable to the disadvantaged. That is class warfare. It is socialism: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Republicans are fighting this bill because it doesn't represent a fair way of providing wider coverage, eliminating denial of coverage when most needed, and cost control, most of which are "problems of perception" created by a lack of desire to pay for services by a populace that regards such things erroneously as a "right" or as something that should be "free" since few have had to pay for it directly (my original point). Most of these problems would be self-regulating in a free economy or could be regulated in our current system without the need for socialistic takeover.

As I stated in an earlier post on this subject in another thread, the way to solve the "problem" is to eliminate third party payers entirely. All invoices and payments should be transacted through the patient. Then and only then, when the risk and costs are fully borne by the consumer, will the consumer exert their will. The rest is academic.

So tell me again, samhill, why do I have to pay for your health care expenses especially when you say you can afford it by virtue of your service and your earnings?
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:30 pm

stockingfull wrote:Simple, Mike. There aren't any easy answers (like "tort reform") which will solve our problems. So the GOP, as the party of "simple(tons)" found no country to invade, or "Patriot Act," to "fix" the problem.

Besides, with the likes of Mary, Blanche, Joe and Ben, in the end, all that were left were the Republican "reform" ideas, like a "Full-Employment Act" for the Connecticut insurance oligarchy. :roll:

You think it's not a Republican bill? Where's the single payer? Where's the public option? Where's the expanded Medicare? What principle left in the Senate bill does the GOP not support?

They didn't vote for it for two reasons: (1) like you, some of them think the ship isn't sinking :what: , and, much more importantly, (2) they want "deniability" when pvt-insurance-based "reform" turns out to be a bust.



LOL, a republican bill ?!? The dems have a supermajority in the Senate, and are threatening the House dems not to tamper with it in committee, and you think the bill is a republican healthcare bill? Hooboy! I hope there's a clause in it for free psychiatric care. If you don't need it, I will!

What the bill is....is a clusterf--- of democrat party compromises! Dems are hell-bent to pass a bill and they don't care what it says! .

Dumbocrats are always about symbolism over substance.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:33 pm

I`ll tell you what you want to hear, you have to pay my way because the Dems. won & the Reps. lost & like little kids that can`t win you want to take your bat & ball & run home to cry. I surely don`t want nor expect anything from a person the likes of you. I`ve always paid my own way & will continue to do so, I do enjoy an intellegent conversation from time to time but only with someone with an open mind. If I may I would suggest you learn to listen to what a person says & take it with a grain of salt and don`t attempt to turn words around to fit your meanings. IM humble O maybe you should use your health care to get some help before the evil ones take everything away because your one sick puppy.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:47 pm

samhill wrote:I`ll tell you what you want to hear, you have to pay my way because the Dems. won & the Reps. lost & like little kids that can`t win you want to take your bat & ball & run home to cry. I surely don`t want nor expect anything from a person the likes of you. I`ve always paid my own way & will continue to do so, I do enjoy an intellegent conversation from time to time but only with someone with an open mind. If I may I would suggest you learn to listen to what a person says & take it with a grain of salt and don`t attempt to turn words around to fit your meanings. IM humble O maybe you should use your health care to get some help before the evil ones take everything away because your one sick puppy.


Sam, I know you pay your way. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to burn coal to save some money. You can take pride in your ability and your service.

My point is that this bill is way overboard. I am sorry that you think socialism is the answer. It never is for a free people.

I am incensed that so many people are lured to false promises of Utopia. There is no Utopia. Reality sucks.

I am incensed that so many people think the money for universal health care would come from them when in fact it would come from only 2% of the people, the lower half of which aren't all that wealthy. Then we wonder why good paying jobs left this country.

Our health care issues can be solved through regulation and non-socialist legislation. The dems are simply wrong on this issue.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:09 pm

Mike all bills from professional politicians of any party are always overloaded the rep.s have a lot of pork in there as well. And there you go again implying that I like socialism, there must be a really broad meaning to the term for you. It seems that anything you say is patriotic & anything other is socialism. Are you to imply that the rep. party never stated a false promise? The health care for the non-covered is being paid for now by the middle class, the ins. co.s don`t contribute a penny. Now your saying we need H.C. regulation, how can that be? What happened to free enterprise, let big business do as they please they will take care of everything they are truely the only ones that know whats best for America. IMO the flood of jobs south & east happened when all the tax free off shore accounts were openly allowed & the mexicans were welcomed in to do the lowly jobs.
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Re: Have the Democrats Lost their Minds? Senate Vote Passes

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:01 pm

samhill wrote:Mike all bills from professional politicians of any party are always overloaded the rep.s have a lot of pork in there as well. And there you go again implying that I like socialism, there must be a really broad meaning to the term for you. It seems that anything you say is patriotic & anything other is socialism. Are you to imply that the rep. party never stated a false promise? The health care for the non-covered is being paid for now by the middle class, the ins. co.s don`t contribute a penny. Now your saying we need H.C. regulation, how can that be? What happened to free enterprise, let big business do as they please they will take care of everything they are truely the only ones that know whats best for America. IMO the flood of jobs south & east happened when all the tax free off shore accounts were openly allowed & the mexicans were welcomed in to do the lowly jobs.


Regulation is the constitutional remedy for issues of commerce. Nationalizing health care is not. While the current bill doesn't nationalize the system, that is the desire of the left. It will be a slow but steady march to nationalization. This is but the first step.

Pork isn't the problem of this bill, it's the takeover of the system and the redistribution of wealth that is the problem.

Socialism is defined as: From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. Is that your desire for this country. It seems to be your desire for health care.

I hate big business but they are here to stay. They have the right to their entity. But I still feel Corporatism is an enemy much like socialism. Socialism has its right to entity also.

This debacle is so unnecessary. It started with corporatism. It will end with socialism. Only the freedom loving people lose.
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