American Arrogance

Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:08 am

stockingfull wrote:Mike, Mike, how can you be so naive? We had Saddam pinned down with the no-fly zone. He couldn't do a thing.

But maybe that wasn't enough... http://hnn.us/article/1000


Pinned down wasn't good enough. We wanted his butt, his palaces, his booty, and to leave an indelible impression on the region. We wanted to be certain he didn't have the WMD, which all NIE pegged him with under two administrations. Only simple schoolboys think that it was retaliation for an assassination attempt on GHWB.

We needed most of all a forward operating base from which to secure the region. Iraq was conveniently located in the center of it all and with Saudi, Kuwait and the UAE not wanting to to appear sympathetic to the West the second time around (to appease the wahabists who were very popular in Saudi and elsewhere after 9-11), they couldn't count on Rihyad. They were lucky to get the help of Qatar and Bahrain. For awhile they were considering using Djibouti as a base.

The US administration had a anti-terrorist mindset that was genuinely concerned about Western interests. Madmen like AQ, Saddam or <insert wacko name here> couldn't be allowed to disrupt oil supplies to the world. Period. As you saw two years ago, minor disruptions in the oil supply cause major problems. Two years ago the terrorists were Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs.

Golly, you and Erik must have just fallen off the turnip truck.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:17 am

jpete wrote:Why are we sending troops anywhere to enforce UN resolutions anyway?

Our leaders and our soldier took and oath to defend the US Constitution, not some corrupt multinational puppet organization.


That was the guise...the reason was oil security, a US interest. The UN resolution was more palatable to most Americans who felt the US didn't finish the job in the The Gulf War. The press would have pounced on the notion of an oil grab or fighting for oil, but in reality, that is what we fight for--economic interests. Oil is king. I didn't say I like it, but anything else is a fantasy.

See the post for Erik and read up on the Carter doctrine and the Reagan Corollary. In one form or another every administration has vowed to secure the Persian Gulf region since WWII.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:26 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Mike, Mike, how can you be so naive? We had Saddam pinned down with the no-fly zone. He couldn't do a thing.

But maybe that wasn't enough... http://hnn.us/article/1000


Pinned down wasn't good enough. We wanted his butt, his palaces, his booty, and to leave an indelible impression on the region. We wanted to be certain he didn't have the WMD, which all NIE pegged him with under two administrations. Only simple schoolboys think that it was retaliation for an assassination attempt on GHWB.

We needed most of all a forward operating base from which to control the region. Iraq was conveniently located in the center of it all and with Saudi, Kuwait and the UAE not wanting to to appear sympathetic to the West the second time around (to appease the wahabists who were very popular in all arab nations after 9-11), they couldn't count on Rihyad. They were lucky to get the help of Qatar and Bahrain. For awhile they were using Djibouti. The US administration had a anti-terrorist mindset that was genuinely concerned about Western interests. Madmen like AQ, Saddam or the Taliban couldn't be allowed to disrupt oil supplies. Period.

As you saw two years ago, minor disruptions in the oil supply cause major problems. Two years ago the terrorists were Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs.

You and Erik must have just fallen off the turnip truck.

Yeah, "schoolboys" like Richard Clarke. :roll:

But I'm glad to see that you realize it wasn't about the UN at all. You should send a copy of this to the 4000+ families who've lost a son, daughter, father or brother over there; you know, so they'll know that their sacrifice wasn't in vain. :down:
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:34 am

stockingfull wrote:Yeah, "schoolboys" like Richard Clarke. :roll:

But I'm glad to see that you realize it wasn't about the UN at all. You should send a copy of this to the 4000+ families who've lost a son, daughter, father or brother over there; you know, so they'll know that their sacrifice wasn't in vain. :down:


Their sacrifice wasn't in vain. What part of the word "security" don't you understand?

You are exceptionally dense tonight.

Clarke would qualify as a simple schoolboy. He got his panties in a bunch about an AQ warning memo to the president that was given short shrift in the pre-9/11 world. Gee, I wonder how many times that happened? To Bush? To Clinton? To <insert president's name here>? Then he writes a "See...I told you so" book.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:55 am

It's the discredited neocon attitudes like yours, Mike, which feed the radicals we say we're fighting against. And guarantee our isolation and ultimate defeat.

I didn't know you were recruiting for OBL. But you're doing a great job.
Last edited by stockingfull on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:57 am

stockingfull wrote:It's attitudes like yours, Mike, which feed the radicals we say we're fighting against. And guarantee our isolation and ultimate defeat.

I didn't know you were recruiting for OBL. But you're doing a great job.


Have you been drinking?
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:00 am

Earlier enough not to matter. Have you?

See the edit: discredited neocon attitudes
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:06 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Yeah, "schoolboys" like Richard Clarke. :roll:

Clarke would qualify as a simple schoolboy. He got his panties in a bunch about an AQ warning memo to the president that was given short shrift in the pre-9/11 world. Gee, I wonder how many times that happened? To Bush? To Clinton? To <insert president's name here>? Then he writes a "See...I told you so" book.

Clarke reported his personal observations that, as soon as the day after 9/11, Dubya made sure it was pinned on Saddam, so he could send our boys in to settle his family's score.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Archive/Against_All_Enemies_War_+_Peace.htm

Perfectly medieval, no?

So actually, Mike, it's worse than discredited neocon thinking. At least the neocons had a (grossly defective) thesis for regional intervention. Bush was just out for blood.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 am

We needed most of all a forward operating base from which to control the region. Iraq was conveniently located in the center of it all and with Saudi, Kuwait and the UAE not wanting to to appear sympathetic to the West the second time around (to appease the wahabists who were very popular in all arab nations after 9-11), they couldn't count on Rihyad. They were lucky to get the help of Qatar and Bahrain. For awhile they were using Djibouti. The US administration had a anti-terrorist mindset that was genuinely concerned about Western interests. Madmen like AQ, Saddam or the Taliban couldn't be allowed to disrupt oil supplies. Period.

As you saw two years ago, minor disruptions in the oil supply cause major problems.


So just to clarify.

A country has a right to invade another country if the following conditions are met:

1) The country has either a strategic resource or is located in a strategic area.

2) The leader of said country is a "bad man".

Under mikeandgerry doctrine the Nazi invasion of the soviet union was justified. The Sovs had oil and other natural resources the Nazis needed and Stalin was unquestionably a bad man.

When people talk about a nations arrogance, they're talking about you mike.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:41 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
See the post for Erik and read up on the Carter doctrine and the Reagan Corollary. In one form or another every administration has vowed to secure the Persian Gulf region since WWII.


Yes.

They don't hate us for our freedom, they hate us for butting into their business.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:50 pm

It is our business. We made it so. They made it so.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:09 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
So just to clarify.

A country has a right to invade another country if the following conditions are met:

1) The country has either a strategic resource or is located in a strategic area.

2) The leader of said country is a "bad man".

Under mikeandgerry doctrine the Nazi invasion of the soviet union was justified. The Sovs had oil and other natural resources the Nazis needed and Stalin was unquestionably a bad man.

When people talk about a nations arrogance, they're talking about you mike.


Kuwait, our strategic ally was invaded by Saddam without cause. This invoked the Carter doctrine. GB41 complied with UN resolutions in prosecuting the war. Terms of the truce were not met after exhausting diplomatic resources over a decade. GB43 was in uncharted territory after 9-11 and rightfully abandoned diplomacy because there was a new meaning to the words "terrorism" and "security interest".

You need to read my posts carefully and understand that with your rabid hatred of GWB as a democrat, still licking your wounds over Bush v. Gore, you cannot think clearly on the subject. The adults decided the issue decades ago by establishing security doctrines. But the spoiled leftist brats of the boomer generation cannot stand to lose any issue that they "feel" is wrong. That is the arrogance that is ruining this nation. That is YOUR arrogance, Erik.

The point of this thread is that YOU don't understand it. Check out the American Battle Monuments Commission web site. It should be abundantly clear, to an adult, that sacrifices that were made by this country for the benefit of ourselves AND others. That was the security objective in eliminating Saddam in an uncertain time. I am saddened your immature thinking won't allow you to see it.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:11 pm

stockingfull wrote:Earlier enough not to matter. Have you?

See the edit: discredited neocon attitudes



So you have been drinking...it shows.

I'll post later.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:24 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
You need to read my posts carefully and understand that with your rabid hatred of GWB as a democrat, still licking your wounds over Bush v. Gore, you cannot think clearly on the subject. The adults decided the issue decades ago by establishing security doctrines. But the spoiled leftist brats of the boomer generation cannot stand to lose any issue that they "feel" is wrong. That is the arrogance that is ruining this nation. That is YOUR arrogance, Erik.

The point of this thread is that YOU don't understand it. Check out the American Battle Monuments Commission web site. It should be abundantly clear, to an adult, that sacrifices that were made by this country for the benefit of ourselves AND others. That was the security objective in eliminating Saddam in an uncertain time. I am saddened your immature thinking won't allow you to see it.


Once again you try to win an argument by personal attacks and changing the subject.

If I were not a moderator I would rise to your childish bait, but alas, I will refrain.
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Re: American Arrogance

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:37 pm

Allow me: the deeper the hole Mike finds himself digging, the more Arrogant he becomes. :box:

And the faster he digs. :flush:

:nana:
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