Yikes!!! -16F at our house this morning!

Yikes!!! -16F at our house this morning!

PostBy: europachris On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:41 am

All I can say is YOWZA!!!! it's cold today!

-16F at our place near Rockford, IL this morning. Schools are closed due to the cold.

Thankfully the wind has died down, but it's been brutal the last few days. The poor gas furnace is keeping up OK, but it's working hard.

The worst part - I DON'T HAVE A STOVE YET! Bummer. Well, I can dream for next year when I hope to get one put in.

I live vicariously through everyone here burning the black nuggets.

Stay warm!

Chris
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:08 am

LOL, 'living vicariously' through our coal burning!

It was -12* from about 10pm all through the night here, just south of Flint Michigan. Ditto the closed schools.

My stoker kept up with heat demand in the boiler. The water temp stayed at ~150* +/-

My leaky farmhouse was pretty cool in some of the rooms this morning, about 62* in my TV/computer room. The 150* water just doesn't put enough BTUs into the baseboard units to overcome the heat loss in the room. But the sun is out now and solar-gain is getting the temp up to a 'tollerable' 65* or so.

Take care, Stay warm!! Greg L

Today's project: pull the stoker out, start a hand feed fire, do some more modifications on the stoker firepot.

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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

PostBy: europachris On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:18 am

LsFarm wrote:Today's project: pull the stoker out, start a hand feed fire, do some more modifications on the stoker firepot.

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Keep us posted w/pics on your improvements!

OT - I'm due to annual our C-140 this month, and I'd like to do it next weekend. It's not supposed to even hit 20F all week, but I need to get her out of the hangar and fly it so I can warm the engine for compression checks (and drain the oil). I'll say this - 85 horsepower doesn't make a lot of heat when you're flying in a thin (drafty) aluminum can at 100 mph.

I don't suppose I could heat the plane with coal???? :wink:

Chris
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner


PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:22 am

Coal preheater for the engine, maybe... :) Lots of corrosion from the fly ash though... :?

Don't forget to preheat the engine, I've frozen over many a sparkplug in winter flying. I changed all engines over to the 'fine-wire' spark plugs instead of the 'normal' massive electrode plugs. The wire heated better and didn't ice over as easy.

Take care, Greg

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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

PostBy: Charlie Z On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:32 pm

LsFarm wrote: Don't forget to preheat the engine...


I'm more careful with the Red Dragon now. I melted the Luscombe's rubber carb parts one 19* day a few years ago when the hose slipped down and roasted the carb. Fuel dumped on the ground as an indicator that it got enough heat and had a new configuration.
Charlie Z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Coalbrookdale
Stove/Furnace Model: Darby

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:40 pm

Charlie, that could have been a real disaster!!

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:16 pm

LsFarm wrote:The 150* water just doesn't put enough BTUs into the baseboard units to overcome the heat loss in the room.


Greg, If I remember correctly your underground piping is 1 inch PEX. You cannot move sufficient BTU through such a small pipe. At least not at any temperature or pressure the tubing can withstand. The problem only shows up on very cold days. For most residential boiler systems the connecting pipe should be no smaller than one pipe size smaller than the tapping on the supply side of the boiler. I made mine the same size as the supply tapping 1-1/2 inches.

Yanche
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:01 pm

Hi Yanche, I thought about that, so I lasered the water pipe coming in and out, and the difference between the outside boiler and the inside propane boiler, All the same as normal. I loose only 3*F in the 150' run from the coal boiler to the heat exchanger in the basement.
The water temp at the input of my baseboard is only 3-4* lower than the temp of the water as it leaves the coal boiler. Total distance 150' + ~60' = ~210'. I was crawling on the floor this morning with the laser thermometer. Dogs thought I wanted to play.

I think one of the problems with my family room is that while I do get input water temp of 147* at the baseboard, the output is only 95*. I had to replace the circulator a year or two ago, and used a standard TACO 007 pump. The pump that had been in this loop was a bigger unit. It had a two speed switch and drew about 1.4 amps. I thought it was overkill. But it may be needed to circulate the water faster in this circuit. The piping is fairly long and is mostly 3/4" with some 1" . So I thiink I'm flow restricted.. I will eventually replace it with a bigger pump or swap with the other very short circuit that still has the bigger two speed pump.

But the heat exchanger and piping seem to be supplying plenty of BTUs, the rest of the house is pretty toasty, but the family room with the west facing wall that is all masonry [inside and outside, the same chunk of brick and mortar] and lots of windows, Too much heat loss with the very cold west wind. Inspite of R-25-30 ceiling insulation.

I just make the dogs lie on my feet to keep them warm!! :) :lol:

Greg L

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Last edited by LsFarm on Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

TOO COLD!

PostBy: drujinin On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:30 pm

I see the moderate weather has left as I had -21 on both thermometers this morning. Europachis lives South of me where its warmer! :)
Which leads me to, "how much heat is everyone getting"? I am running a strong fire and holding 70 degrees using 50lbs a day. Add another 20 for the night at 62 degrees for a total of 70lbs on a 45,000btu Hand Stoker. Upstairs is about the same with help from the 35,000btu wood stove.
The 2 furnaces kick on at 68 during the day if someone is home and 60 the rest of the time.
Basically, I'm looking for DATA on consumption verses heat for a week of weather like this to convince me to go totally Coal.
Thanks,
drujinin
drujinin
 

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:37 pm

LsFarm wrote:Hi Yanche, I thought about that, so I lasered the water pipe coming in and out. ...Snip ...The water temp at the input of my baseboard is only 3-4* lower than the temp of the water as it leaves the coal boiler. ...Snip...


Don't confuse temperature drop with flow rate. Think of flow through a straw vs. flow through a fire hose. Both can have the same temperatue drop but the larger one will move more water and hence more BTU.

I think one of the problems with my family room is that while I do get input water temp of 147* at the baseboard, the output is only 95*.
This tells me it's working. The BTU's are being transfered to the air resulting in a low output temperature. You need more baseboard units or something like a kick space heater or big cast iron radiator.

Yanche
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Heat Exchange

PostBy: drujinin On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:44 pm

Yanche and LSFarm were discussing the quote below;

"I think one of the problems with my family room is that while I do get input water temp of 147* at the baseboard, the output is only 95*. I had to replace the circulator a year or two ago, and used a standard TACO 007 pump. The pump that had been in this loop was a bigger unit. It had a two speed switch and drew about 1.4 amps. I thought it was overkill. But it may be needed to circulate the water faster in this circuit. The piping is fairly long and is mostly 3/4" with some 1" . So I thiink I'm flow restricted.."

If you put in a bigger pump wouldn't that force the 147 degree water through the baseboard faster making it come out warmer? I would think that a Delta T of 52 degrees would be plenty. I would suggest another baseboard placed along the stone/brick wall in the West room because of the poor insulation qualities of brick and stone.
When I run LARGE engines on heat exchangers and they start running hot, I find restricting the flow makes one side of the exchanger give up more heat to the other side because the water is in there longer.
By the same token, the slower the water travels through a tube type boiler the MORE time it has to absorb heat /BTU's from the fire theoretically meaning you should use less fuel to get the same amount heat into the water.
Just my 2 cents..........
drujinin
drujinin
 

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:41 pm

My take on the temp drop from one end of the baseboard unit to the other is that yes. it is tranfering heat to the room, but at one end of the baseboard, the temp difference between room air and the heated fins is 147*-60*, but at the cooler end the temp difference is 95*-60*, so the amount of differential is lower, therefore less heat can be given off to the air. If the entire baseboard unit was at say 180*, then it would really 'kick-butt' and make up for the heat loss of the room.

There is no place to add anymore baseboard or to put in a toe-kick heater. What is going to happen this summer is the masonry wall is going to be insulated and drywalled over. To eliminate a 35* brick wall that is 14'x8', that is a huge heat loss. I have 2" white foamboard over it now, but need to make a better job of it.

The crawlspace under this part of the house is inaccessable. Without jokeing too much, it would be easier to dig an outside hole, and bust through the foundation from the outside than to try to access the space from inside the house. VERY poor construction. This is one of the parts of my farmhouse that needs some 'bulldozer renovation'.

I raised the water temp up 15* and got my hand feed fire going, so the family room us up to 68* right now, but there is no wind either.

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

PostBy: rouxzy On: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:46 pm

Greg,
Thanks for the links for the radiat heat you sent me. This in turn will help you out here. Through my research on radiant heat I have found alot of information on circulation pumps, especially the Taco 007 pump that you are using. Bottom line is it will not pump enough water for your application. These pumps are good for small applications and more times than not are under sized. I have two myself but they are for small applications. The reason your room is cold is because the drop of 147 to 95 form one end of the baseboard to the other much too much and that is because of the lack of flow. The Taco 008 come very highly reccommended. Although the 007 has a higher flow rate, it is the head range that gets the fluid there more efficiently. The 007 has a head of 11 compared to the 008 of 16.
As far as your pipe size. Pex is rated for 200 degrees at 80 psi and 180 degrees at 100psi. Your pex is just fine. If you want more heat you will have to get a bigger pump. With a bigger pump you will find that the water temps coming out of your coal boiler will be higher also because what you are doing now is returning water that is cooled down much too much to reheat. With a larger pump the water will return with less temp drop and will heat up quicker. Typically the Taco 007 pumps are good for 400 feet max for 3/4" pex and you are running over that with 1" mixed in with it.
Slowing the flow of water will not heat up quicker as I once thought myself. Actually the quicker the water flows through the more heat it will pick up. Heat will always want to go where it is cooler. Good Luck.
Tom
rouxzy
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut / Anthracite

PostBy: LsFarm On: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:08 am

Hi Tom I've got some items to clarify, I have a very healthy pump on the coal boiler, it is pushing through 1" pex-al-pex to a 40 plate exchanger and then a 30 plate exchanger then back to the coal boiler about a 300' round trip. I'd have to go look at the pump but it is a bigger pump, like a taco 11 ? that sound right? a much bigger pump.

the water leaving the coal boiler is usually about 5-6* hotter than the return water, this is with the house pulling a lot of heat, the current temp drop across the two plate exchangers is about 8*.

the Taco pump that I mentioned is one of three zone pumps in this hodge-podge heating system. Instead of zone valves the system has a different circulator for each zone. The 007 pump is in the zone for my family room. I'll go through my pile of pumps and see what my options are, I may just swap for the pump in the third zone that doesn't have much distance or baseboard on it. ONe thing the heating plumber did was to put nice big gate valves above and below each circulator, so I loose only about a cup of water swaping out a pump. I do have several other pumps around, so I should take a look at them too.

Thanks for the info. Greg L

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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

PostBy: rouxzy On: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:50 am

Greg,
The 007 pump for your zone is fine assuming you have 3/4" pipe that is less than 400 feet.. I thought you were using it to push the whole system.
Taco does make a 0011 pump that has 30 feet of head range, so yeah that is a much bigger pump. If you have a bigger pump you can switch out on hand I would try that. You might be able to squeeze out a couple of more degrees out it.
Tom
rouxzy
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut / Anthracite