Ducting warm air in long ranch

Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: gerry_g On: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:02 pm

I have a long ranch home and the stove is in a conditioned room at on end in the basement. Pioneer stove, main furnace is propane.

I've installed floor vents with variable speed "booster" fans for the two rooms above the room with the stove. I INCLUDED automatic fire dampers as required by the US National Code, it is enforced in my area (local discretion).

I'm trying to figure out how to transfer air from the room with the stove to more distant rooms. Clearly I'd need to move a fair amount of air and insulate the ducts when passing trough unconditioned basement area.

Due to head room restrictions and existing plumbing, It seems I'll need high velocity fans so I can use small duct. Small duct also helps reduce heat loss in the unconditioned basement.

I can't locate a source of metallic high velocity "booster" fans. I can't get an answer from my inspector if I can use plastic other than if I use ANY plastic I need fire dampers both where I draw air through the wall to unconditioned basement space AND where there are any floor penetrations. The fire damper code is clearly written for large commercial buildings, large apartments, hospitals... all with fire rated stairway doors as well. No wording seems to relate to residents but I need to keep my inspector happy it keep my fire insurance valid.

Suggestions or pointers to variable speed high velocity booster fans are welcome!
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: ewcsretired On: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:53 am

Dont know the answers to most of your info but for high quality, metal blade, booster fans you can find at
http://www.aero-flo.com/catalog/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
ewcsretired
 

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:17 pm

Are you trying to move the heated air to the rooms with your current vents? Most ductwork systems pull cool tempered (return) room air to the heating source and push the heated air (supply) to the rooms. In planning to move an amount of air out of the conditioned room, there needs to be a way to return at least an equal CFM volume of cool air.

I've only seen the high speed ducts associated with cooling where they move very cold air to the room. For heating applications, wouldn't the air have to be very hot to move the required BTUs to adequately heat the room? If you really need high speed ducts, wouldn't you be more successful and comfortable moving colder floor level air back to the conditioned stove room? The heat will flow to that area where the lower pressure is. Cool air is more dense than warm air and will settle to the lowest point so just help it along.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

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Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:36 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:Are you trying to move the heated air to the rooms with your current vents? Most ductwork systems pull cool tempered (return) room air to the heating source and push the heated air (supply) to the rooms. In planning to move an amount of air out of the conditioned room, there needs to be a way to return at least an equal CFM volume of cool air.


No, using my existing hot air system could seriously upset pressures in the duct and even possibly have the furnace over temp cut out or cycle due to altered duct pressures. Return is no issue, there is already VERY free return to the room with the stove. Return is as vital as supply but already accounted for.

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:I've only seen the high speed ducts associated with cooling where they move very cold air to the room. For heating applications, wouldn't the air have to be very hot to move the required BTUs to adequately heat the room? If you really need high speed ducts, wouldn't you be more successful and comfortable moving colder floor level air back to the conditioned stove room? The heat will flow to that area where the lower pressure is. Cool air is more dense than warm air and will settle to the lowest point so just help it along.


Small high velocity ducts are used for heat and AC. However they are generally driven by the furnace's air mover.

I used "I'll need high velocity fans". High velocity, small diameter ducts moves the same CFM of air as conventional sized ducts operated at low (conventional) pressure, thus no higher temperatures are required. I'm seeking room-room transfer which will reduce propane usage. I do not expect to be able to eliminate my furnace, the supply is just another warm room. I do set the coal thermostat higher than usual most of the time since the family room is seldom used. It cools rapidly via stairway if desired.

My free return is already in place, thus room-room warm air is desired. The returns to some rooms are via upcut doors, thus denser air and gravity already assist. I'm only in need of moving warm air to the desired rooms. I am not interested in using high transfer grills that would be needed for any convection benefit.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:51 pm

ewcsretired wrote:Dont know the answers to most of your info but for high quality, metal blade, booster fans you can find at
http://www.aero-flo.com/catalog/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.



Those are conventional low velocity booster fans. I'm looking for something more like this


http://www.airboosterfans.com/centrifugal-inline-duct-fan.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


They have more than double the CFM rating than standard duct boosters. However, there seems little guidance using them as stand alone room-room transfer fans.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: 2001Sierra On: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:45 pm

Here is what I did. Becareful, many fans create a lot of noise. I recently reversed the flow returning cold air to the stove through the same setup, everything seems better because with the old hand fired the area had a lot of pent up heat due to the radiant characteristics of the hand fed. The Keystoker heats the room it is installed in much more evenly.
Moving heat up stairs
2001Sierra
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90 Chimney vent
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Buderus Oil Boiler 3115-34
Stove/Furnace Model: Keystoker 90 Chimney Vent

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:48 pm

2001Sierra wrote:Here is what I did. Becareful, many fans create a lot of noise. I recently reversed the flow returning cold air to the stove through the same setup, everything seems better because with the old hand fired the area had a lot of pent up heat due to the radiant characteristics of the hand fed. The Keystoker heats the room it is installed in much more evenly.
http://nepacrossroads.com/about13876-15.html#p154828



Thanks for the response but I don't think it applies to my needs.

I don't see any fire dampers, required for any floor penetrations by current fire code (unless you area doesn't enforce such). Without such my fire insurance is voided.

In addition, my original post mentioned I needed to use small ducting. My thoughts re noise are to place the fan in the middle area of the run and flair out duct size (and registers) near the terminations.
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: 2001Sierra On: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:37 pm

I understand your limitations on fire code. I would be interested in how well you make out with the small duct size and high velocity fans. Keep us updated.
2001Sierra
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90 Chimney vent
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Buderus Oil Boiler 3115-34
Stove/Furnace Model: Keystoker 90 Chimney Vent

Re: Ducting warm air in long ranch

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:06 pm

I'm still searching for a fan/air mover designed for high velocity heating and AC. I'm is a real dilemma with little head room to move air to the other end of my long ranch. I need fans that will move significant air through 4-6" ducting! The existing hot air distribution can't be tampered with without furnace air pressure issues and where I need to run ducts interferes with soil plumbing.

The only solution I can think of is high velocity ducts but I can't find metallic (fire codes in my area) fans that can be inserted in a duct.

I could use a starter of larger diameter as well as at the floor outlet (with fire damper, my inspector doesn't understand that all fire damper codes were written for multi-story commercial buildings and apartments, no code references to single family residences. I can penetrate the floor with an open stairway but not a duct!

Any ideas on where to find high velocity fans?

gerry
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer LE Top Vent

Visit Leisure Line Stove