Napolitano should go!

Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:15 pm

Mike, Mike, I wasn't talking about Cuba, and you know it. (Although their example of surviving for almost 50 yrs, despite a suffocating embargo, is worthy of grudging credit, you'd have to admit.)

I was talking about Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, and on and on. Big, modern, prosperous countries with universal healthcare. And doing a helluva lot better than we are on outcomes, while spending far less per capita.

So, care to take another shot at why we can't be as successful as the countries I've listed have been in integrating a universal healthcare system with a sustainably functioning economy?

I can look for it if you like, but I believe there's a famous quote by Churchill about how much he envied the socialist healthcare system in Germany. And that was before WWI!
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:21 pm

stockingfull wrote:Pay no attention to Terry, Mike. He's disgracing himself as a mod with veiled and not-so-veiled personal attacks.


Two points:

1. Somehow in your liberal mind you must qualify "veiled attacks" in a more favorable way because you utilize that style in most of your posts. I give Terry points for his emotional honesty.

2. "Pay no attention to Terry, Mike" was perhaps your most transparent and telling remark to date about the nature of the left's concealment strategy. It's as simple and ineffective as "The Wizard of Oz"; "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" Just so you know... we understand your strategy and your intent. I'd laugh but the reality is you're straight outta Compton.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:30 pm

As a "deflection," Mike, it's good. But I don't call you an idiot, or even dishonest. If you make idiotic or dishonest arguments, that's different.

Do you have kids? Haven't you heard the old day-care line: "We don't have bad children, only sometimes bad behavior"?

So, now, how about addressing the merits of us being the only remaining industrialized country without universal healthcare, and not very good healthcare (on a world-scale), and phenomenally -- and unsustainably -- expensive healthcare at that.

Why can't we compete, Mike?
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:35 pm

stockingfull wrote:I was talking about Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, and on and on. Big, modern, prosperous countries with universal healthcare. And doing a helluva lot better than we are on outcomes, while spending far less per capita.




One word....unsustainable


that is....without protectionism, high taxation, low discretionary income, deficit spending and willing financiers provided by capitalism. Without willing financiers, the Weimar republic will best describe the end result of your shining cities on the hill.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:46 pm

stockingfull wrote:As a "deflection," Mike, it's good. But I don't call you an idiot, or even dishonest. If you make idiotic or dishonest arguments, that's different.

Do you have kids? Haven't you heard the old day-care line: "We don't have bad children, only sometimes bad behavior"?

So, now, how about addressing the merits of us being the only remaining industrialized country without universal healthcare, and not very good healthcare (on a world-scale), and phenomenally -- and unsustainably -- expensive healthcare at that.

Why can't we compete, Mike?


I am haven't been talking about healthcare per se. But since you think I am focused on that:

You don't understand that we DO compete. We have the most USED healthcare system in the world. We spend more because we LOVE to go to the doctor and have procedures done.

The only problem with our health care system is the expense which is driven up by lawyers as much as technology.

Lookie here....trouble in paradise and who's at fault? Lawyers.

http://civil.udg.es/Eurocentre/Projects ... actice.htm

Hence, one can not escape the fact that there are serious economic consequences of an increasing medical malpractice regime, whereby the question arises whether the politicians responsible for the financing of the health care system, are aware of these economic consequences.



It's very simple. Quality products cost a lot of money. If you want to reduce the cost by force, the quality will come down for everyone. Just say what it is, Jon. Class warfare.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:53 pm

And to get us back on topic.....the reason O should fire Napolitano is to confirm that he is going to defend us from terrorists.

His failure to do so means that he agrees with JN that there is NO war on terror.

One gets the growing feeling that the liberals with their porkulus and healthcare deficit spending WANT the system to come crashing down. It appears that is the goal.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:25 pm

On healthcare, tort reform in the form of re-examining standards of care which are applied in malpractice cases, and how they are proved, are the kinds of pilot programs the President has endorsed. They can go forward in states which want to try them, and then we'll see how much is saved. What you can't do is cap recoveries (which just penalizes victims) or further limit attorney's fees (which are already capped in most states, where the Constitution places control of the vast proportion of tort law) because that makes it impossible to prosecute a claim. But, so far, "tort reform" has proved to be an economic make-weight in the healthcare debate. It just doesn't get us there economically.

But how do you explain that we're 37th in the world on outcomes, yet have far and away the most expensive healthcare system on the planet? If you say we "go to the doc too much," then why don't we have far better outcomes to show for that? Has it occurred to you that maybe our media ads for drugs and elective procedures are costing far more than the lawsuits you so like to hate? Where else in the world can people watch prescription drug ads on TV? And why are we paying so much for those drugs, when they're so much cheaper right over the border? How's that compare with your "tort reform" numbers?

In the end, Mike, the direct implication of your comments is that we cannot continue to allow Americans to have "all the healthcare they want" because it's just too goddam expensive and doesn't improve the end result.

If you believe that, how would you answer Sarah Palin's charge that you're putting together "death panels" to limit people's choices for care, especially the "heroic" and obscenely expensive stuff that routinely goes on at the end of life? The economics of that make "tort reform" economics vanish -- yet Sarah and Betsy McCaughey turned the whole topic into the third rail last summer. Where's the outrage, Mike? :roll:
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:35 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:And to get us back on topic.....the reason O should fire Napolitano is to confirm that he is going to defend us from terrorists.

His failure to do so means that he agrees with JN that there is NO war on terror.

One gets the growing feeling that the liberals with their porkulus and healthcare deficit spending WANT the system to come crashing down. It appears that is the goal.

It's absurd, and counterproductive, to fire somebody unless you're improving the product.

If the President believes that the security product will be improved, he should can her. If the price of the symbolism will be a substantive step back, he should not.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:53 pm

Golly , Reagan fired Alexander Haig for not knowing the heirarchy of executive command.

Not knowing the policy of the administration would certainly be cause for dismissal, regardless of the value the replacement.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:11 pm

stockingfull wrote:What you can't do is cap recoveries (which just penalizes victims) or further limit attorney's fees (which are already capped in most states, where the Constitution places control of the vast proportion of tort law) because that makes it impossible to prosecute a claim. But, so far, "tort reform" has proved to be an economic make-weight in the healthcare debate. It just doesn't get us there economically.

But how do you explain that we're 37th in the world on outcomes, yet have far and away the most expensive healthcare system on the planet? If you say we "go to the doc too much," then why don't we have far better outcomes to show for that? Has it occurred to you that maybe our media ads for drugs and elective procedures are costing far more than the lawsuits you so like to hate? Where else in the world can people watch prescription drug ads on TV? And why are we paying so much for those drugs, when they're so much cheaper right over the border? How's that compare with your "tort reform" numbers?

In the end, Mike, the direct implication of your comments is that we cannot continue to allow Americans to have "all the healthcare they want" because it's just too goddam expensive and doesn't improve the end result.

Where's the outrage, Mike? :roll:


We are 37th in the world on outcomes because we take all candidates for procedures, not just the "best" cases as in other countries.

If malpractice reform and tort reform (two different things) were of such little importance why has it been the subject of myriad discussion, scholarly study and debate? Surely not all the impetus for such concern is from the right. Stop being so foolish in your argument.

The cost of legal action is VERY VERY expensive and an obstacle to cost effective care. Most cases are frivolous and most awards are excessive. It drives the cost of medicine on a growth curve that exceeds than inflation. There is no other explanation except greed of lawyers, the risks of research progress and the cost of that technology. All of those costs must be borne by the consumer.

Under your system, if you want to reduce costs and refuse to give up your paycheck, you will not get all the healthcare you want. That is the bottom line.

You are just worried about youself and your buddies when it come to paychecks.

You and the socialists are the outrage. You had better check the polls.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:42 pm

Mike, my point (which you chose to ignore) was precisely that, from the standpoint of healthcare economics, "tort reform" is a makeweight issue which the insurance lobby has used the right to promote for years to distract from the rape they're performing on the healthcare system. Simple as that.

It costs about 1.5-2% on a good day to insure against doctors' mistakes. Get that? INSURE. Meanwhile, the insurance companies are skimming off 25-30% in non-healthcare "expenses" while Medicare runs at far below 10%. The difference is TEN TIMES the cost of malpractice claims. And we haven't even counted the vast sums the insurers make off the malpractice insurance market (which they cry crocodile tears every day that it's not "fixed." :roll: )

You see, Mike, insurance is one of the last things we, ahem, "produce" in this country. Only, as often is pointed out here, it's not a product which creates wealth. In the end, by definition, the insurers only win when we lose.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:58 pm

stockingfull wrote:"tort reform" is a makeweight issue which the insurance lobby has used the right to promote for years to distract from the rape they're performing on the healthcare system. Simple as that.


It's bull. Simple as that.

Read the damned articles I linked. No insurance company involvement. Malpractice has been a growing problem for a century (as a result of lawyer advocacy) with that 1-2% over inflation causing the ENTIRE PROBLEM of runaway costs. On a growth curve, 1-2% points over the inflation rate compounded blows the hell out of reasonably priced health care.
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:21 pm

I saw a single article you linked above, a Dutch article about an ostensible problem with German malpractice trends. I saw no reference to American law or costs at all. You do know that the European civil law system is completely different from ours, right?

Is that the best you can do, Mike? Because if it is, you just entered an "Alford plea" to this debate. :lol:
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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: spc On: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:10 pm

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Re: Napolitano should go!

PostBy: smokeyCityTeacher On: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:32 am

Yanche wrote:Why not fire the TSA head also? Gale Rossides, Acting Administrator, is a Bush holdover. Why is there no appointed leader? Because one Senator, Jim Demint (R-S.C) is holding up the conformation of Obama's appointee, Erroll Southers. Another example of partisan politics in the Senate. Demint objects to the collective bargaining rights for TSA employees and is using power to prevent the nomination hearing from happening. Would a new leader have prevented the incident, most likely not, but clearly new leadership at TSA is needed. As the national health bill illustrates, partisan politics on both sides, has effectively brought moving forward to a standstill. Much to the detriment of this country.



Jim Demint has good reason to hold up Southers. He is a denier of the Islamic threat and he lied to congress about using the FBI to do a backgound check on his X's BF.

If Demint holds up a legit TSA appointment let me know and ill agree with you.
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