EDENPURE Heater

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:11 pm

The argument for infrared heat is that it heats you directly; it does not depend on heating the air first.

In a room filled with infrared you will be comfortable at a lower air temperature.

On a sunny windless day it can be very comfortable outside at low air temperatures.

How much infrared heat an electric heater can deliver depends on its design. The hotter the surface temperature the more infrared, just like our radiant stoves. Those heaters that advertise low surface temperatures can only distribute the bulk of their heat by convection, that is, by heating the air.

One of the earliest designs of electric heaters used a resistance wire wrapped around a ceramic core and mounted in front of a parabolic shaped reflector, Of course they could only heat a person directly in the focused path of the infrared but they were very effective. I have seen in Costco stores in the winter a similar design in a working display. From 10 or more feet away you are instantly aware of the heat. Good for heating one or two people in an otherwise cool room.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Yanche On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:30 pm

I think what's missing from the discussion is the human bodies sensitivity to different wavelengths of radiation. I have no expertise on it but I can see how an infrared heater might make a human feel warmer than warmth conveyed to the same person via conduction (sitting on a radiator) or radiation at a longer wavelength (hot air duct). IF, that's the case the, a infrared heater could provide a human more heat that other heat sources per unit of measure compared to the other methods of heating.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Ozarks On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:34 pm

franco b wrote:The argument for infrared heat is that it heats you directly; it does not depend on heating the air first.

Well, I'd like nothing better than to let that go as the explanation, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold water in the case of enclosed infrared heaters, because they'e just that - enclosed. Very little radiant heat is going to escape from that cabinet.
Ozarks
 


Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Coalfire On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:57 pm

Ozarks wrote:
franco b wrote:The argument for infrared heat is that it heats you directly; it does not depend on heating the air first.

Well, I'd like nothing better than to let that go as the explanation, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold water in the case of enclosed infrared heaters, because they'e just that - enclosed. Very little radiant heat is going to escape from that cabinet.


How is yours set up? if very little radiant heat ecscapes that means it has to be forced hot air and that is awful :( , radiant is so much more comfortable.



Eric
Coalfire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 96K btu Circulator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Ozarks On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:01 pm

Coalfire wrote:How is yours set up? if very little radiant heat ecscapes that means it has to be forced hot air and that is awful :( , radiant is so much more comfortable.

AFAIK, all infrared heaters of the Edenpure variety are set up with the elements inside a box and a small opening on the front. Doubtless a little radiant heat escapes, but it can't be much.

As far as comfort level, I find the heat from an infrared heater much more pleasant than the blast-furnace of an upright quartz element heater. Instead of cooking you, it warms the whole room gradually.
Ozarks
 

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:44 pm

Radiant heat is infrared. If you want to get fussy something red hot is also giving off visible light which can also warm. Your dislike of quartz tubes is because heat is only coming from one side which is a good thing if you only want to heat a small area with a person in it, but a bad thing if you are trying to heat the whole room.

If your heater is like the Eden Pure then it is heating primarily by convection either natural or fan forced with a small amount of infrared radiating from the warm cabinet. This does not mean that the heat source within the cabinet is not infrared it just means that by blocking it with the cabinet enclosure it is very much reduced.

Our bodies also emit infrared. When the walls of a room are very cold you will lose heat from your body at an increased rate so you may feel less warm even though the air temperature may be the same as when you were comfortable when the walls were warmer. Being comfortable is the balancing of your bodies heat loss and air temperature is only one factor. Walk out in the summer Sun and you will feel the heat. Walk into the shade and it feels cooler.The air temperature is almost identical.

What is the most comfortable heating system? In floor radiant heat followed by gravity hot water. Both these systems tend to have gentle radiation steadily. With baseboard radiation or hot air you will tend to feel colder almost instantly when the heat stops; the air can not be colder in that short time, but what has happened is the radiant heat has gone way down. You hear very often that users say they love their coal stove because the heat is steady.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:43 pm

An incandescent light bulb gives off roughly 95% of its energy in the form or radiant heat. That means a standard 100 Watt light bulb gives off 95 Watts of radiant heat every hour. That translates to 324 BTU's per hour. A room with 15 incandescent 100 Watt light bulbs in it would be heated just as well as a room with an EdenPure on high power. :flush:
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Ozarks On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:49 pm

lsayre wrote:A room with 15 incandescent 100 Watt light bulbs in it would be heated just as well as a room with an EdenPure on high power.

At this point, I think we've just gone back to my original analogy - only we're pouring the 55 gallons of water in 15 holes instead of just one. Still won't compare to a sprinkler. :)
Ozarks
 

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:58 pm

Ozarks wrote:
lsayre wrote:A room with 15 incandescent 100 Watt light bulbs in it would be heated just as well as a room with an EdenPure on high power.

At this point, I think we've just gone back to my original analogy - only we're pouring the 55 gallons of water in 15 holes instead of just one. Still won't compare to a sprinkler. :)


I'm not so sure. 15 light bulbs should be capable of being spread around well enough to offer some mighty comforting and uniform heat. And if you don't like the light, you can spray them with a good coating of black high temperature stove paint. That should bring them up to nearly 100% efficient in giving off radiant heat. And 15 conventional 100 Watt light bulbs are a lot less expensive than an EdenPure.
:cheers:
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Ozarks On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:04 pm

lsayre wrote:15 light bulbs should be capable of being spread around well enough to offer some mighty comforting and uniform heat.

Well, let's see... heat rises, so you'd have to put them on the floor - then be mighty careful where you walk... :idea:

Seriously, I really don't think that's in any way comparable, even theoretically. Now, if you put those fifteen light bulbs in a heat chamber with dual fans... you'd have the start of an infrared heater! Albeit one with 3-5 times the number of heating elements to replace.
Ozarks
 

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:27 pm

Ozarks wrote:Seriously, I really don't think that's in any way comparable, even theoretically. Now, if you put those fifteen light bulbs in a heat chamber with dual fans... you'd have the start of an infrared heater! Albeit one with 3-5 times the number of heating elements to replace.


Now I understand why one of the advertizers said "Get the heater FREE! plus $250 for the cabinet" 8-)
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Coalfire On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:28 pm

Ozarks wrote:
lsayre wrote:15 light bulbs should be capable of being spread around well enough to offer some mighty comforting and uniform heat.

Well, let's see... heat rises, so you'd have to put them on the floor - then be mighty careful where you walk... :idea:

Seriously, I really don't think that's in any way comparable, even theoretically. Now, if you put those fifteen light bulbs in a heat chamber with dual fans... you'd have the start of an infrared heater! Albeit one with 3-5 times the number of heating elements to replace.



I've never seen heat rise only hot air. If heat rose how would the sun heat the earth? Heat goes from hot to cold no matter the direction. So if the floor was colder the heat from the light bulbs would migrate down. Like radiant heat in a ceiling as long as it is well insulated above the heat will go down.




Eric
Coalfire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 96K btu Circulator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Ozarks On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:31 pm

lsayre wrote:Now I understand why one of the advertizers said "Get the heater FREE! plus $250 for the cabinet" 8-)

Kinda depends on the heater. Ours uses six $10 long-life quartz elements, not bulbs, and has overload protection plus of course dual high-quality fans and an analog or digital thermostat. And yes, it's all housed in a very nice wood cabinet. :) The entire heater is made by local Mennonites, but still sells at or below the industry average.
Ozarks
 

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:54 pm

Ozarks wrote:\\
Well, let's see... heat rises, so you'd have to put them on the floor - then be mighty careful where you walk... :idea:


That's not entirely true especially when you're considering heat trapped inside a room, it also wants to go where it's colder. They even have radiant heat you can use in a ceiling which I've even questioned the effectiveness myself but apparently works well. As another example an unheated basement will stay warmer than outside in the winter just from the heat radiating from the floor above assuming there is no insulation in the floor.

Like I said, wrong place to argue about heat distribution. :)
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: EDENPURE Heater

PostBy: Ozarks On: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:38 pm

Richard S. wrote:They even have radiant heat you can use in a ceiling which I've even questioned the effectiveness myself but apparently works well.

Yeah, I have such a system sitting over my head right now. Roasts the room up nicely, but consumes a ridiculous amount of power. Not the most efficient method of heat distribution, I think.

While it's true that hot air, given no other outlet, will move downward, I don't think anyone would dispute that it's quite a bit easier to get it moving upward :)

What you would be doing with the light bulb setup, I think, is basically avoiding the need for a fan by using 15 heaters instead of one - a plan which has certain self-evident limitations of practicality. Shrink that down into one lamp, and you're back to the heat distribution problem.

franco b wrote:This does not mean that the heat source within the cabinet is not infrared it just means that by blocking it with the cabinet enclosure it is very much reduced.

My point exactly.

franco b wrote:What is the most comfortable heating system? In floor radiant heat followed by gravity hot water. Both these systems tend to have gentle radiation steadily. With baseboard radiation or hot air you will tend to feel colder almost instantly when the heat stops; the air can not be colder in that short time, but what has happened is the radiant heat has gone way down. You hear very often that users say they love their coal stove because the heat is steady.

Radiant or not, the heat from an infrared heater feels very comfortable.
Ozarks